PBP Match Thread: Argentina vs Croatia, 21 June 2018 [R]

Did you even watch the game? There is just so much nonsense here, it's a waste of time to go through it point by point. You have no understanding of football. Let me just say this. I'm a Real Madrid fan and a Ronaldo fan, but I respect Barcelona and Messi. Did you just appear out of the woods? Have you not seen many of Messi's games over the years?

He's been "an absolute mess for his country", and yet he led them to the final of the 2014 World Cup, outplaying Germany in the Final. He's been "an absolute mess for his country", and yet he is the reason why Argentina is at the World Cup at all. Do you even think before you post?



Can you analyze a game? Do you see what Messi faced?

 

If I just appeared out of the woods? I've been a football fan since the age of 6, which happened 55 years ago (I'm 61). I saw Pele and Maradona and Messi play, in person, at the stadium, and I've been to a number of World Cups. I probably have more decades watching football than the age of many of the posters here.

Again, this is not ONE failure. Messi has failed with the Argentine National Team MULTIPLE times. Sure, this game, he was in trouble. The problem is, he rarely seems to be able to get OUT of trouble when he plays for Argentina. There are COUNTLESS examples of great players whose managers assigned them poorly to a position not favorable to them, who were double and triple-teamed, who were fouled and restrained, who didn't get a good supporting cast, whose companions failed them... but still, they prevailed. Not Messi, though.

If I think before I post? I do. But I don't consider playing the final and outplaying Germany to be a win. He still didn't do enough for Argentina to win. Vice-Champs is for losers.

Yes, he pulled a miracle in the last game of the qualifiers... after having failed in many others.

I watched ALL games of the South American qualifiers.

Don't underestimate me, buddy. You can idolize Messi as much as you want and get upset at me because I dare say otherwise, but I'm no spring chicken.

Sometimes people don't have a sense of History.

Saying that Messi is the GOAT is preposterous. Not even close.

Curiosity: with your ID being MarioKempes, are you from Argentina?

 

Messi has one more chance (after countless chances he's had, and blew them). He can lead Argentina to victory against Nigeria. If he does, I'll tip my hat to him. He is rapidly running out of time to do something big for Argentina in the biggest stage. Again, if he does, then I'll recognize his feat.

But I'm just afraid we'll see the same choking Messi we've been used to seeing when it matters, with Argentina.

Poor guy, I feel sorry for him, sometimes. It's sad, actually. So, maybe he'll recover, and won't end his career as a failure for his national team. We'll see.

 

I’ll bite on the trolling lol.

But it was Eder not Ronaldo who led them to victory. It was Garrincha not Pele in 1962. It was ... fine it was Maradona. But he didn’t win the euro club championship league as many times as Messi or have the goals. Messi keeps himself fit, no marital problems, no drugs lol... longevity. One win is just hero worship like the ‘86 bears. The 49ers were a dynasty. Messi was too. If his teammates stopped missing his record would be vastly different. It could easily have been 3 wins in a row.... two tournaments pks... one overtime meaning they didn’t lose until the very end. Doesn’t make sense to judge people on just championships it’s a total body of work

 

I'm sorry, but this is a ridiculous statement. Messi didn't fail. Argentina NT did. Starting with the Federation and an incompetent coach.

 

It's funny how you turn the real achievements of real winners into someone else's help... but you won't acknowledge that Messi never got it done.

Again, I am not disputing, and never disputed Messi's accomplishments with Barcelona (a protected environment designed for him) so don't even start with the euro club championships. That's not my focus. Fine club player? Sure.

Flexible enough to adapt to a different arrangement, resilient enough to prevail over adversity? Nah.

That's for the likes of Pele, Ronaldo, Maradona... not for the likes of Messi.

Why is this trolling? Can't someone - who havs witnessed soccer history for 55 years - have a sensible assessment of these players' legacy without being called a troll?

I do have a sense of history. I've witnessed these great players upfront and personal. I actually met and talked with Pele in social situations, twice, and met and talked with Tostão in social situations several times (he was married to a woman who was a close friend of my family, whom we called a cousin, although there were no blood ties), and Pele's father was a friend of my uncle's, who was a family doctor who actually delivered Pele. Rivelino was married to a cousin of mine (this one, a blood relative).

I've attended in person games in which Maradona crushed Brazil's hopes. I've followed the great players over the decades.

After having witnessed the History of the sport for more than half a century, it irks me that the youngsters get all impressed with The Flea and dare to mention him in the conversation about the Greatest of All Times. He is anything but, and if someone who DOES HAVE a sense of History and has actually witnessed these things first hand, is a troll for trying to open people's eyes a little, then, OK, call me a troll.

 

But never won. Had many chances. Never got it done.
I wonder if Pele, Maradona, fat Ronaldo, Beckenbauer, Zidane need these excuses. They don't. They got it done.

 

This time, maybe. But he failed many times. Many. He choked and puked on the pitch, and showed no stamina, resilience, and energy, over and over. No, the failure is not just the NT's. It's fully Messi's too.

 

My argument is, why do we need to find all kinds of excuses to explain each Messi failure with the NT? It's a long, long, long list, my friend. Sure, if we had all the time in the world, all the memory, all the complete video clips, we could analyze each game one by one, and say, "OK, in this Copa America final where Messi disappeared and did nothing and the team lost 3-0 to Brazil, let's see who marked him, what the manager did, what the companions did, what the Brazilians did..." and then we repeat this ad infinitum for the dozens of games where it mattered, and he lost. I'm sure if there is such a thing as a PhD in Football Theory, this might be a fascinating academic thesis. I'm sure we'd then notice a MOUNTAIN of evidence that one can't just justify these things over and over by different factors... that at some point, over the years, a truly great player will break through and deliver (like the great ones have done over and over again).

My problem with this approach is that sure, one can take any ONE game and say "Higuain didn't do this, Aguero didn't do that, Messi was triple-teamed and fouled a lot, nobody passed the ball to him, the manager was an idiot, the Federation didn't know what they were doing."

And it will be true for that ONE game/tournament.

But hey, when it keeps happening over and over, five, ten, fifteen, twenty, thirty times... one starts to wonder, wait a moment, is this player a bit over-rated after all, and only able to deliver in a club setting where he is familiar with everything???

Look, the evidence is MASSIVE. It's YEARS of failures, tournament after tournament, to the point that THE MAN HIMSELF has recognized it, when he temporarily quit the Argentine Men's NT saying to journalists "I just don't seem to have what it takes."

Then people said "Oh no, Messi, you're great, come back, we need you, we love you..."

Maybe they should have listened to the man himself.

Do you remember when idiotic Zagallo was entirely unable to coach the Brazilian 1970 team? Do you remember when idiots kept saying that Pele and Tostão couldn't play together? Do you remember when the military dictator president of Brazil influenced the called up roster? Do you remember when people said that Pele was too old and out of touch?

Well, what happened? Pele took control. He bypassed Zagallo. He had dialogues with Tostão and they designed their own strategy. They went on the field and let the others know what needed to be done, contrary to the idiotic orders from the manager.

What happened? Brazil won the 1970 World Cup, with Pele delivering a performance for the ages, even though the coach was an idiot (a good player, Zagallo, but a pitiful coach).

My question to you is, do you actually think that Messi is able to pull this kind of thing off??? LOL.

And you mentioned Maradona, and yes, I was there when he won that World Cup practically all by himself, dribbling every opponent, telling his companions what do to, carrying the team on his shoulders, even enlisting the help of God's hand.

THESE are the real GOATs.

Messi? Pffft...

 

Much respect my elder statesman.

But The Real Ronaldo also had player of the year Rivaldo and Ronaldinho. That team was so stacked.

Pele’s team was also stacked.

Maradona fine he soloed the 1986. In 1986 he beat South Korea 3-1, tied Italy 1-1, then beat Bulgaria 2-0. R16 Uruguay 1-0, cheated England 2-1, beat Belgium 2-0, then West Germany 3-2. The last three games were all at Azteca (which probably was a huge advantage looking back at it... he knew the pitch). Gary Lineker said he couldn’t believe how Maradona was working on such a crappy surface (to be fair England just played on it in the r16).

Fine maybe he’s not the goat ... he can change that still if things pan out.

I get the whole thing too with being irritated people saying new players are the best ever the older I get. Lebron is the best ever... gtfo it was Jordan. Tom Brady... gtfo it was Montana. New Direction... gtfo boys II men lol

 

Oh, and one last thing: the real great players are the ones who make their companions look great. They are the ones who add to the whole in a way that everybody else looks like a football genius. Yes, it's a team sport... but you have some special players who are able to inspire the others so that they grow to the next level.

They aren't the ones who pout and throw tantrums and puke and look like frustrated babies whose candy was taken away from them.

So, the "really great teams behind them" is relative. A team is made of 11 players, the subs, and the coaching staff.

Sometimes when we have a truly great among them, he elevates all the others.

Leadership, wisdom, communication, charisma... those are qualities that a Maradona had, and a Messi doesn't.

I'll tell you what: I'm actually surprised with people who can't see it.

They marvel at a Messi dribble and goal with Barcelona... and they are blind to the man's many shortcomings.

I find these shortcomings to be quite obvious, so I'm always surprised that some people don't seem to be able to see them.

I mean, really? Greatest of All Time? Yeah, right.

 

I really like this post. With your last paragraph, you seem to understand me... Yep, gtfo it was Jordan! I live in North Carolina! I love Jordan! I hate Tom Brady! Give me Montana any day!

You get me. I'm not sure many others here do.

Yes, in 1986, I was there, I attended that cup in person. I hear everything you're saying that contributed to Maradona's success... but still, this person here, the nephew of the doctor who delivered Pele... someone who had all the reasons to hate Maradona... Someone who was raised in Brazil from a young age, passionate about Brazilian football... I was still in awe of Maradona.

I was in Italy in 1990 too, and I was there in Turin when Maradona ran through our defense and set up Cannigia with 10 minutes left, to get his team to beat us 1-0. This is one of the most painful memories I have... I remember sitting on the sidewalk, depressed, with tearful eyes, barely able to get on the train back to Paris where I lived at the time... I gave up on the rest of the Cup, so crushed I was...

Oh well, West Germany got them... but they got close.

In any case, Maradona had already won it 4 years earlier.

So, Maradona inspired as much fear as what I'd expect from the pits of hell...

Messi? He never really did anything consistent against the Brazilian NT. When Brazil plays against Messi's Argentina, I don't experience the dread and dismay I experienced when that towering figure, Maradona, loomed large over us.

So, for me, it is really laughable that these youngsters consider Messi to be anywhere close to the GOAT conversation. LOL.

 

I said in my first post that Maradona is the GOAT. LOL idolize Messi. That's a good one. The problem for Argentina is the way they play, not Messi. You can't revolve a team around one player in today's game. Argentina has no balance, no system. Messi runs around everywhere and they try to get the ball to him. The other team just follows Messi around with 2 or 3 or 4 players. The whole thing is ridiculous. Argentina never had any chance of winning this World Cup, and it was obvious to most. They barely qualified. Sampaoli doesn't know what he's doing. He's just a Bielsa wannabe.

You can fault Messi for not winning in 2014, but where was Ronaldo's team? They didn't even pass to the round of 16. You are very selective in your criticisms. Portugal don't have a system that revolves around Ronaldo. He just happens to be their best player. That's a big reason why they have more success. He also plays in the forward line.

Croatia has the best midfield in this World Cup, and Argentina's is mediocre. Did anyone really think that Argentina could control the midfield? Argentina lost their #1 goalkeeper, Sergio Romero, in May. I had Croatia winning this one.

Playing Messi deep in the midfield was a dumb idea for this set of players. What i would do against Nigeria is to move Messi to the front line with Kun Aguero and get Banega in there as an attacking mid.

I have no connection to Argentina. 1978 was my first World Cup and Mario Kempes was the star.

 

Like with the USA, doing badly at soccer is just a symptom of something much deeper affecting the country. Argentina is also suffering of moral malaise at the most basic level.

 

(Emphasis added by me).

Here are the quick observations about the squad of Argentina in 1986 WC:

• Valdano was the best foreign player of La Liga in the same season, 1985-86. He was the 2nd top scorer of the league. In Uefa cup 1984-85 and 1985-86, Valdano was playing in a team that ended up as champion, Valdano scored in both finals' leg games. Scored once in the 1986 WC final. Note that, La Liga had seperate prizes for “Best foreign player” and best spanish player back then, Valdano may be considered even the best player of La Liga 1985 - 86, only another Latin American Hugo Sanches outscored him in that season and the best spanish footballer of La - Liga 86 -86 was a right-midfielder of Real Madrid with 7 goals in 31 games while Valdano scored 16 in 32 games. Valdano would probably have been selected the best player of la liga in case they did not have seperate awards for locals and foreiners. In a sense, it can be said Maradona had the best player of La Liga in that world cup.
• Burruchaga was the best foreign player of French League 1985-86. His team was not champion that season, yet he ended up being the best foreign player of the league. Moreover, 3 years earlier he was part of the team that won Argentina league, copa libertadores and the intercontinental cup. Scored once in the WC 1986 finals.
• Hector Enrique was a midfielder of the team that won Argentina league, Copa Libertadores and Intercontinental cup in 1986. All in the same year of that supposed average sided Argentina. He was in the starting 11 of the Intercontinental cup 1986 finals.
• Pumpido: Like Enrique, he was the keeper of the team that dominated the tournaments of 1986.
• Stopper: Ruggeri. He also was a part of the team that dominated the tournaments of the same year; he is widely considered one of the best Argentinian defender ever.
• Daniel Passarella: He ended 1985-86 season in Italian Seria A, he mainly was a defender yet he scored 11 goals in Seria A 1985-86. After the end of the season, he was bought by Inter Milan.
• Clausen: 2 years earlier he also was part of a team that dominated South American tournaments. At the time of the world cup, he was just 23.
• Castrol Rankings chose best 11 of the WC 1986, 5 of that players were from Argentina Squad, compared to 4 players of Brazil 1970 which is considered the best national team ever. Ok, this castrol rankings rely on details rather than a performance but nevertheless, this ranking is good to see who made less errors.

• That supposed "average sided Argentina 86" had 5 players in top 10 compared to the team that is widely regarded the best National Team ever: Brazil70, they had only 3. Netherlands 74 is also considered one of the top National teams ever, they had 5 players in top10.
• If we look deeper, Rivelino, 3rd brazilian in top10 who is ranked 6th in top10, had a rating of 9.38 compared to the lowest Argentinian in top 10's rating: 9.39
• Castrol rankings are based on the mistakes and correct steps footballers did, it does not indicate the whole performance, of course it can not be taken as a bible but it however shows how frequently they made mistakes, Argentinians were making less mistakes than their rivals.
• Maradona had 4 defender teammate and 1 attacking teammate in top10 compared to 2 attacking midfield teammates of Pele.
• Moreover, in Castrol's WC1986 top 10 players, Germany and Belgium, the two teams Argentina faced in semi-final and final, did not have any players in top 10.
• england, whom Maradona faced in quarter final, had only 1 player in top10 and that one is an attacking player, no any defender.

Now, compare that squad to the Germany of 1986 final's starting 11. Quick observations:

• Karl Heins Rummenigge was playing in Intermilan in 1985-86 season, he scored 13 goals in 24 games he played in. Compare it to Argentina's sub player Daniel Passarella, a center back that scored 11 in the same season of the same tournament German Striker was playing in.
• Germany's forward Allofs: In 1985-86 season, he was part of a Uefa Cup runner up team, he scored only 7 goals in the German league compared to Argentina's substitute center bacl Passarella's 11 in Seria.
• Felix Magath: 3 years earlier, he was part of a UEFA cup winning team. In 1985-86, he was part of a team that ended the league as 7th placed team. He was an attacking midfielder, he had nothing worthy to mention in 1986
• Lotthar Matthaus: Nothing. He was very great midfielder, nothing needed to describe him.

No need to go deeper, Germany had players that were part of good teams in 1985-86 but when compared to Argentina 1986, their squad is not as good as Argentina's.


Maradona had good squad and "good team" behind him. This squad is usually served as "poor side Argentina." That is how overrated Maradona is, his teammates are diminished - degraded so that Maradona can look better.

 

Wow very nice. /applaud

 

Eder did for Ronaldo what Higuain couldn't do for Messi ^^

 

International trophies are surely irrelevant..

George Best would be considered a nobody by that rule .. there have been some amazing players with poor international teams

 

Yeah, yeah, you make excellent points about this Cup, this team, this performance. Like I said, the problem is that this isn't the only Messi failure. He's been failing when it matters, tournament after tournament.

Sure, you'd move Messi upfront... wouldn't leave him deep in the midfield (against the best current midfield in the world, I agree; said as much in another post).

The problem is, like I said, when Zagallo tried to misuse Pele and had idiotic strategies, Pele took charge, met with the players unbeknownst to Zagallo, and redrew the strategy for them, told them what to do instead, and executed the plan; Brazil won the World Cup with Zagallo basically being merely a spectator.

Messi has no vision, no leadership. He actually sometimes looks like a one-trick pony. He gets the ball, tries his little cut and run to the left... loses the ball. The problem is, players by now know what to expect from him, and they adapt. Messi does NOT adapt. He seems to have a one-track mind. Players like Pele and Maradona were a lot savvier and a lot better at reading the game and changing the strategy on the spot, REGARDLESS of what some stupid coach told them.

There is a book on the history of Brazilian soccer that details this episode, describing how Pele was the "de facto" coach in 1970 in spite of Zagallo being the official coach.

Can Messi do that? Absolutely not. Messi is completely clueless in the matter of leadership. He simply doesn't possess any.

So, this excuse, "oh, the coach didn't know how to utilize Messi and put him on the wrong spot" only applies because Messi is passive, has no energy, and is unable to take charge. That's *precisely* why he is a good Barcelona player (over there they design everything for him and around him) but when he plays for the National Team with a different coach and a collection of other strong egos, he looks lost.

Messi has the ability to dribble an cut and make fast runs and finish well, and score. I have no doubt that he has some outstanding ball skills.

But this is not enough to make of a player the GOAT.

Look, maybe Messi will have an outstanding performance against Nigeria, score a hat trick, and send Argentina to the round of 16. He always has the potential to score goals. It's enough for a defender to make a small mistake and Messi can score anytime.

Maybe then he'll help Argentina advance all the way to the final. Then it's a big problem. He tends to choke and be emotional, and go AWOL when it matters.

So, even if he takes Argentina to the final, I'll still say, if he doesn't win the final, his international career will have ended in failure.

If Messi does it all the way (which is not excluded; he is a skillful player, after all), then I'll tip my hat to him, say that he was a late bloomer but finally got it together, and I'll say he will belong in the conversation about the GOAT. I wouldn't say that *one* success after a couple of decades of failures will make of him *the* GOAT (I'd still keep Pele and Maradona as co-GOATs) but at least he'll belong in the conversation, side by side with other greats like fat Ronaldo and Beckenbauer.

Now, if he doesn't do it, then he will NOT belong in the conversation, period, full stop.

Messi still has one more chance. He should better get it together if he wants to have this kind of legacy (having the honor of being rightfully considered in this GOAT conversation even if not properly *the* GOAT).

I don't hate him. I actually experience pity for him most of the time. I have no reason to hate him, since he was rarely a factor in games against Brazil. So, if he finally gets it done, I'll say, "good for him." Of course, if he does it against Brazil I won't be happy, but if Brazil gets bumped out early and Messi takes Argentina all the way to the title, sure, I'll tip my hat to him.

But if he doesn't, then, that's it. End of the discussion.