PBP Match Thread: Argentina vs Croatia, 21 June 2018 [R]

Discussion in 'GROUP D: Argentina, Croatia, Iceland, Nigeria' started by bigsoccertst1, Jun 21, 2018.

  1. AllWhitebeliever

    AllWhitebeliever Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 4, 2006
    On the injury table
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    New Zealand
    Yeah except history is not going to care in a 3-0 dubbing.
     
  2. zahzah

    zahzah Member+

    Jun 27, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Argentina to throw out manager before game three?

     
  3. MarioKempes

    MarioKempes Member+

    Real Madrid, DC United, anywhere Pulisic plays
    Aug 3, 2000
    Proxima Centauri
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Ronaldo is a forward. Messi is an attacking midfielder, lately a deep lying one. They are very different positions. Messi started out as a right winger at Barcelona, then became a false 9 attacking midfielder, then start playing even further deep. You can't compare them directly.
     
  4. tudobem62014

    tudobem62014 Member+

    Feb 26, 2014
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Messi always just jogs around. He’s saving his energy.

    Rakitic was on him like glue when he got the ball in the last third... he knows all Messi’s moves.

    Doesn’t look frustrated to me until after slick willy’s Slow baby bouncies
     
  5. Kamtedrejt

    Kamtedrejt Member+

    Internazionale Milano
    Albania
    Mar 14, 2017
    Hamburg
    Club:
    FC Internazionale Milano
    Nat'l Team:
    Albania
    That's excellent news. At the moment it looks it could be either Denmark+Spain or France+Portugal. But Uruguay, Russia and Iran are also in contention. I would be perfectly ok with Denmark and Spain. Spain is a very old team and much more beatable with Hierro at the helm. Croata needs to go step by step first.
     
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  6. thebigman

    thebigman Member+

    May 25, 2006
    Birmingham
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Have Argentina played 343 for qualifying? I don’t get it. Seemed so narrow at the back allowing Croatia to counter wide with an easy outlet to perisic???

    Seems like a lack of creativity through the middle? Was bangega not used much in qualifying?

    It seemed Messi was quite isolated. I thought we might see

    .....aguero......higuain
    ..............Messi

    Imo that would of alllwed Messi to have more of a chance at influencing the game

    Croatia were magnificent though, they have technical brilliance and a tough bunch of players in the middle and seem very well organised

    Even though he played for Tottenham, Modric is really a generational talent up there with Scholes and Xavi etc
     
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  7. UnitsE3

    UnitsE3 Member

    Oct 21, 2017
    #482 UnitsE3, Jun 22, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2018
    Messi is a genius, Argentina are overrated. That's the whole story.
    We all know very well who's Messi, a player who capable of anything with the ball at his feet, his consistent brilliance week in week out over the last 12 years.
    Argentina that is doubtful.
    I think Argentina slowly becoming a second tier team among the likes of Chile, Portugal, Sweden and such.
    They are technically poor team compared to others WC Winners.
    Teams such as France 1998, Brazil 2002, Italy 2006, Spain 2010 and Germany 2014, when they won the World Cup they had all the tools from A to Z to be able to beat anyone.
    What Argentina has? 10 players rely on one man to win the World Cup, it's quite embarrassing.
    All players needs Messi.
    While it supposed to be the other way around, all players do everything to help Messi but the fact is everybody wants from Messi to do everything on the pitch.
    The ball does not reach Messi.
    No one can pass him the ball.
    The team couldn't put in a single decent cross.
    No respectable defense.
    Nothing worth mentioning.
    Now imagine if Messi had chosen to represent Spain?
    Spain 2010 with Xavi and Iniesta playing with him at their prime, a sense in which makes him far more dangerous.
    Imagine if Messi had chosen to represent Italy the path of his roots?
    Italy 2006 a highly reliable defence and impeccable tactical understanding team.
    Would he be considered GOAT by a distance?
    Argentina should be grateful forever that Messi wasted his legacy for playing in this average team.
     
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  8. Brasitusa

    Brasitusa Member+

    AC Milan
    Italy
    May 14, 2014
    Club:
    New York City FC
    And your analysis is full of "buts and ifs" - sorry mate, sure, Messi had done well with Barcelona; I've already acknowledged this obvious fact, so no need to bring up the 4 Champions League trophies. I'm talking about the national team. Do you actually think that the greatest players of all time weren't chased around the field, double-teamed, triple-teamed, fouled non-stop, and weren't faced with teammates that weren't always as great (given the sheer rarity of players who are as good)? Think again. But then, what did they do? They won. You can say whatever you want - but Messi is a midfielder, but if Higuain and Aguero had scored, but Messi is triple-teamed, etc. You can say I'm short of hard facts... well, here are a few hard facts for you: Maradona, FIFA World Cup Champion. Pele, FIFA World Cup Champion. Ronaldo, UEFA Euro Champion. Beckenbauer, FIFA World Cup Champion. Fat Ronaldo, FIFA World Cup Champion. And so on and so forth. Messi: Club Champion, Zero, Zip, Nothing, Nada 2nd place LOSER with the Argentine Senior National Team. THESE are the hard facts that you are trying to ignore with your "ifs and buts."

    Fat Ronaldo suffered two horrific knee injuries in his career, multiple surgeries. Pele was decimated by injury in 1962. Maradona faced personal demons with drug addiction. Many of the greatest players faced uphill odds in many ways.

    But then... they prevailed. They are winners. They are not second-place losers.

    I never doubted that Messi is a great club player that can do well when the system is adapted to him. I said so in all letters when I first posted here about this. The problem is, he doesn't have what it takes to overcome the uphill battles when the system is not favorable to him, like all the Greats could do.

    Agree with Maradona as the GOAT. Might place Pele as co-GOAT. It's hard to compare them due to them playing in vastly different eras, and Pele having a better supporting cast (Garrincha and others first, Tostao and others next) but also a longer and more accomplished career. The debate about who is the absolute greatest when comparing these two is futile. They flight above everybody else, with some rare few flying a notch below (Beckenbauer, fat Ronaldo, etc.).

    But Messi? LOL, give me a break. He simply doesn't belong in the conversation regarding the GOAT, period, full stop.

    And no, his failures are not just linked to the last few finals you've mentioned, and only happened in the twilight of his international career. He's been faultering when it matters for Argentina in a long time. I remember an older Copa America when Argentina came with their A team and Brazil with their B or C team, with a younger Messi at his peak, an still, when the final came, Brazil crushed them easily, with Messi performing another one of his disappearing acts, complete with his emotional disregulation, puking on the field (this has happened many times to him).

    Look, see this link. Messi in the first half yesterday had fewer touches than the disastrous Argentine goalie.

    https://www.yahoo.com/sports/messi-makes-unsportsmanlike-exit-following-crushing-loss-211243981.html

    Sure, he is double-teamed, triple-teamed... but doesn't have the energy and the resilience to overcome this, like the real GOATs had.

    I'm sorry, but if there is a bias here, it's yours, in favor of him, ignoring these hard facts. That's OK, I understand that you admire this guy. I do too, *as a club player.* As a national team player? Nah...
     
  9. Brasitusa

    Brasitusa Member+

    AC Milan
    Italy
    May 14, 2014
    Club:
    New York City FC
    Again, people are not looking at the entire history. It is telling that you are only talking about teams from a certain period on. Football history is longer than that.

    Messi did have great Argentine teams at his disposition, earlier on. Did nothing. His failures with the national team span his *entire* career. It's not only now that his team is older and mediocre that he can't do anything. It has always been like this, thus the hard fact that he has no trophy whatsoever with the senior national team, for whom he has played every tournament since he came out of youth soccer.

    Other great players did have mediocre teams at their disposition. Won.

    Yeah, yeah, *if* he had played for Spain, Italy, Brazil, Germany, etc... sure, sure. Talking about *ifs* and hypotheticals is great, and easy. I'd like to rather talk about the concrete reality. Would he be good for those teams? It would remain to be seen. He might as well choke, puke on the field, and disappear, regardless of the supporting cast, like he has *always* done when not in his protected space at Barcelona, even in the occasions when he did have a good supporting cast.

    Well, guess what, there is no *if*. He is Argentine. He is not Spaniard, Italian, Brazilian, or German. He is who he is, and here is what he is, like Sir Alex said: a good Barcelona player. No less, but also, no more.
     
  10. Brasitusa

    Brasitusa Member+

    AC Milan
    Italy
    May 14, 2014
    Club:
    New York City FC
    You sure can compare them directly when the issue is who is the GOAT. Beckenbauer and Zidane, who do belong in the conversation, were not forwards either.

    The problem with this is, drop Messi from the conversation about the GOAT, and I'll agree with you that he has other merits. But bring up the idea that he is the GOAT (not that you are doing it; I'm talking in general terms) then by nature, the conversation brings up a comparison, and it is fair game to gauge these players on the hard facts of their career accomplishments - often the co-GOATs that do belong in the conversation have been great for BOTH club and country, while Messi who doesn't belong, has been only great for a club, for a single club, and has been an absolute mess for country. Period, full stop, he doesn't belong, regardless of the position he plays in.
     
  11. verde-rubro

    verde-rubro Member+

    C.S.Maritimo + Liverpool FC
    Portugal
    Jan 15, 2005
    LONDON
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Portugal
    X2
     
  12. Sir_Artur

    Sir_Artur Member

    Nov 21, 2014
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    #487 Sir_Artur, Jun 22, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2018
    I want Nigeria to advance. Let African football improve, 1 African and 1 European advancing is better than 1 South American and 1 European advancing or 2 Europeans advancing. It is better for world football.

    However, I very much doubt FIFA will 'allow' Nigeria or Iceland advance instead of Argentina. Argentina is a footballing nation, has more stars, has more fans in Russia. In all ways Argentina advancing will bring more income than Iceland or Nigeria advancing.

    I am afraid we will end up watching one more scandal tonight. My prediction: Nigeria will have controversial win against Iceland, then Argentina will defeat Nigeria. Argentina vs Nigeria will be another controversial match, Nigerian players will get dissipated due to referee decisions, Messi will shine and thus Messi will become the messiah.

    That is what I think will happen. Not sure about Messi shining but Argentina will advance.
     
  13. tudobem62014

    tudobem62014 Member+

    Feb 26, 2014
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    So much passion in this thread. I’ll throw my hat in!

    Iniesta. Sergio Busquets. Pique. Sergio Ramos are the GOAT. Multiple champions league wins. Euro 2008 2012. And all World Cup Winners!
     
  14. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Your analysis is solely based on a premises that an individual can always make a difference completely ignoring team dynamics and tactical analysis. In the end, it's a team sport and even the greatest players need some sort of tactical organization in order to make a difference.

    One narrative is to say Messi disappeared yesterday. Another one is that Sampaoli put him closer to the goal in the hopes he could get on the end of some scoring chance. The few times Messi touched the ball yesterday, he still made some good plays which showed his quality.
     
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  15. TitoTata

    TitoTata Member+

    Jun 26, 2014
    They can't get any worse
     
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  16. TitoTata

    TitoTata Member+

    Jun 26, 2014
    Busquets has always been my favourite Barca player even above Messi . Such a shame so many critics still judge/ label him as a diving cheat all because of that sill "peekaboo" incident about 10 years ago ..

    He's such a supremely talented player on the ball and you know what a gifted player he is when Glen Hoddle is salivating over his skill levels ..
     
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  17. soccernutter

    soccernutter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 22, 2001
    Don't drink beer but like cheese
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Mod question: do you have evidence he is autistic? Asking as one who has worked with autistic persons.
     
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  18. soccernutter

    soccernutter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 22, 2001
    Don't drink beer but like cheese
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    He gets shit from Argentina fans because he has put his loyalty to Barcelona over his loyalty to Argentina, and he made that clear early in his career. Further, when he did start playing for Argentina, he was not able to produce his form and ability and magic which he did for Barcelona, despite a very talented group of players playing with him. Has he done great things for Barcelona? Absolutely. But for Argentina? Nope. All the other players on the GOAT list have done both. I am a Messi and Barcelona fan (not strong enough to say "supporter"), but if Argentina do not advance here, I will admit that CR7 deserves a better GOAT ranking over Messi for having a major international competition winners' medal for his national team where Messi does not.
     
  19. zahzah

    zahzah Member+

    Jun 27, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    I have an autistic son. He does have some autistic behaviour, but how can you really say without seeing he face to face. If true even more reason NOT to make him captain.
     
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  20. SF19

    SF19 Member+

    Jun 8, 2013
    Nat'l Team:
    Greece
    I think we may yet see the best of Messi with Argentina, so I can't write him off.

    I get what you're saying, but sometimes the best forward is one who simply opens up play for others. Giroud did this the other day for France all game and it was his all around play that helped lead to Mbappe's goal against Peru. I think more of Messi's potential would be realized if Argentina had a big body forward who used his size as a wrecking ball for other players to then find space to maneuver. Icardi is a very good player, but Messi is the player who must be accommodated. The team must be built around him. Icardi for me is at best a bench option for Argentina when Messi is having an off day and Argentina need a different option to score goals.
     
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  21. zahzah

    zahzah Member+

    Jun 27, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Icardi isn't a bulldozer, but he is pretty strong. Icardi ahead of Higuain would have worked.

    Playing lightweight players against powerhouse Croatians and Icelanders didn't.
     
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  22. Estel

    Estel Member+

    May 5, 2010
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    I don't think it matters as Argentina's fate is now out of their hands.

    As I understand it, even if Iceland lose today, and Argentina win against Nigeria later on, the final positions in the group would still depend on the Croatia-Iceland game's result. As Iceland winning that game would have them level on points with Argentina and thus goal difference would determine the final standings in the group.

    In fact, it might even be better for Argentina if Iceland wins today as Nigeria would then be knocked out and have nothing to play for against Argentina in their last group game, although it would also mean that Croatia will need to necessarily beat Iceland for Argentina to advance.

    The 2nd place in the group would thus effectively remain undecided till the final round of games.
     
  23. Tukafo

    Tukafo Member+

    Oct 12, 2013
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    This scenario however would also mean that Argentina would have to turn around a goal deficit of at least four goals in the final game
     
  24. soccernutter

    soccernutter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 22, 2001
    Don't drink beer but like cheese
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Power to ya!

    But my concern is that I have met some people with "autistic tendencies" who are not. I also think this type of comment does a disservice to those who are on the Autism spectrum.
     
  25. Estel

    Estel Member+

    May 5, 2010
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Assuming you are talking about the scenario where Iceland win today, since Croatia have to beat Iceland in the final game in that scenario, it depends on the number of goals with which Croatia do that. For example, if it is again a 3 goal margin, then Argentina winning with a two goal margin will see them through.

    The problem with scenario 1 wherein Iceland don't win today is that Croatia then secure top spot in the group and have nothing left to play for in the final game vs Iceland, while Nigeria would go looking for a result against Argentina.

    Overall, the battle for 2nd place is poised in a very interesting manner.
     
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