Let's just run with it and have fun. The WaPo has an article today on how the Bushies screwed up the negotations with Turkey. And here's Our Man Paul. It's a nice little article about how bad the Bushies f'ed up. Well, it's not a little article, it's a long article. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A39794-2003Mar27.html Can we get this guy fired?
He's not an idiot, he's very intelligent. He's also guided by some convoluted belief in a 21st century version of Manifest Destiny, striving to use military force to set the entire world up in the US's image. That's what makes him the scariest person working in this Administration.
Re: Re: Re: Re: "Paul Wolfowitz is an idiot" thread Has there ever been a #2 in any department at any time in American history that has received so much attention? Not many people expected Turkey to so thoroughly self-destruct (though the elections of the past several years were a warning sign). It appears the biggest miscalculations came from the Turks. From the article: "In Turkey, senior party officials said, a significant faction within the government believed Turkey could prevent a war by dragging out the negotiations and voting no if necessary. " Um, no. The three biggest losers of the war are the Iraq, Turkey, and Israel. Only Turkey's was completely self-inflicted. I'm just hoping we're not added to the list, though the way things are going I wouldn't be surprised.
Oy ga valt, I'm all verklempt How has Israel lost? We just paid them a hefty fee to sit still and not nuke anyone. Also, Turkey hasn't lost yet. If they do rush into northern Iraq for a land grab or to stop the Kurds from forming a "fact on the ground" "nation", do you think a US-Turkey war will break out?
Re: Oy ga valt, I'm all verklempt This war is a disaster for Israel, just like the first war was a disaster. They fought a costly war to get an armed PLO out of Lebanon. After GWI, they get what amounts to an armed PLO in the West Bank and Gaza. They risk suffer an attack, possibly unconventional, from Iraq. Even if it doesn't happen, the costs in terms of preparation alone are massive. The main problem, though, is that they'll be pressured incessantly once this was ends. Turkey has lost a great deal. First, they've lost a shitload of money. Second, they've lost a free pass to attack the Kurds and take a piece of Iraq. Turkey has destroyed their relationship with the USA and has few friends in Europe. I call this a disaster. Maybe catastrophe is a better description.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "Paul Wolfowitz is an idiot" thread The post-war Israel/Palestine situation can be viewed and spun so many ways that it is difficult to say if this is good or bad for Israel. Scanario #1: Israel forced into two-state solution. Not likely by Bush ... but maybe by Bush's democratic successor if terrorist violence picks up against the American regime in Baghdad. So - would this result be a plus or minus for Israel? Toss a coin. Scenario #2: Israel digs in and no negotiations but suffers continued Intifada. They keep more land but suffer continued violence (and dole it out as well). Good or bad for Israel? Toss a coin. Scenario #3: Scenario #4: Scenario #5: .... you get the point.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "Paul Wolfowitz is an idiot" thread I think that is a very, very good question. There has been an effort by many in the anti-war movement - including Rep. Jim Moran on the left and Pat Buchanan on the right, to "blame" this war on "Jewish interests." So what you see now is incredible attention paid to Jewish members of the Bush administration. Unfortunately, for those who wish to "blame" this war on Jews, there are no Jewish Bush cabinet officials. Not a single one (unlike Clinton, for instance, who had several). So instead you see a tremendous amount of attention paid to the #2 in the defense department and an advisor (or ex-advisor in Richard Perle). This is, of course, only a part of the answer - but I do think it's a much bigger part than most people realize. Anyhow, just for fun, does anyone actually remember who was William Cohen's top deputy? (this article articulates the thesis in much more detail than I have time for) http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/PrinterFull&cid=1048389488651
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "Paul Wolfowitz is an idiot" thread Just for the record, I don't care that Wolfowitz and Perle are Jews. I care that they've forced a doctrine upon us that is immoral and unjust. My opinion of them would not be any different if they were Baptists. Just for the record.
OK, but it was the "neo-cons" who have been pushing this war since the Bush I administration. I come back to something Josh Marshall wrote about the reaction to the Moran comments...to paraphrase, the swiftness with which everyone said there was nothing to Moran's remarks makes one suspicious there is something to it. I mean, you can't just deny what Perle and Wolfowitz have been doing over the last 10+ years. Those are facts, not anti-Semitism. Personally, I had no idea they were Jews until the issue starting getting "in the wind" a little before Moran's remarks. Given where I live (I don't know if it's still true, but when I was growing up, North Carolina had the lowest percentage of Jews *AND* Catholics in the US), I can't spot a "Jewish" name except for a couple, like Cohen (since you brought it up.) Frankly, I can't tell a "Jewish" name from a German name, 95% of the time. Finally, I think it's safe to say that there's been no shortage of criticism of Rumsfeld around here, to put it mildly. And I'm assuming he's not Jewish since you said Bush has no Jews in his cabinet. And just for fun, did Cohen's #2 f*** up negotiations like this?
By the way, I'm not accusing anyone on these boards of anti-Semitism. There's almost no original thought on these boards - you don't see soccer fans carrying out their own exhaustive investigations of defense policy and posting their findings on the Politics section of bigsoccer.com. Arguments we see here are almost always repetitions of arguments played out in the media - just look at how many threads start with links. The fact that so much attention has been paid to Wolfowitz and Perle on these boards is only a reflection of how much attention they've been given in higher political circles and the media. It is there where I think there is - among, some, and I repeat some - a bit of (often latent) anti-Semitism. Almost everything that is written about Wolfowitz and Perle is true (or at least I'll give the writers the benefit of the doubt on that, anyhow). My question is on the seemingly disproportionate focus of attention... As for superdave's assertion (or Josh Marshall's assertion, repeated by superdave) that "the swiftness with which everyone said there was nothing to Moran's remarks makes one suspicious there is something to it" - please elaborate...
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "Paul Wolfowitz is an idiot" thread The point is that you might not have heard of them if they were Baptists, nor would there be any theories that they "forced a doctrine upon us." If you are Richard Perle, this is great stuff. Imagine the fees you can charge if people think that you're pulling all the strings. To an extent, this stuff is self-fulfilling.
A lot has been written about them because they are two of the key architects of the doctrine we are carrying out in Iraq currently. So because they're Jews, we're not allowed to criticize them? So even if all the criticism is true, it's not OK because they're Jews? See above. They got us into this mess. They're version of diplomacy is an abject failure, they don't mind having clear conflicts of interest.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "Paul Wolfowitz is an idiot" thread Which brings to mind Jonah Goldberg's joke about the disproportionate number of Jews in Congress that voted against the resolution supporting war in Iraq. "Funny thing about those Jews. They can get 4,000 tribesmen out of the World Trade Center in time, but they can't get them to vote for war when they need them."
> Turkey has lost a great deal. First, they've lost a > shitload of money. Second, they've lost a free > pass to attack the Kurds and take a piece of > Iraq. Turkey has destroyed their relationship with > the USA This is all very true, but the thing is that the US has had a poor history of paying its pledges and fulfilling all its promises lately. And a greenlight to enter Iraq when there are 60,000 US troops there ahead of you isn't much of a benefit. Now the US only has the 1000 strong lightly-armed anti-Turk tripwire and I don't think that will stop the Turks if they can just get the provication they want. Turkey is in a bad place, but I don't know that their choice was really that clear.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "Paul Wolfowitz is an idiot" thread That's exactly what i was thinking. I mean the guy is the deputy sec of defense..
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "Paul Wolfowitz is an idiot" thread Bullhocky. The history of the current doctrine is on my side on this one. To wrap criticism of it in the cloak of anti-Semitism is cynical and hypocritical to the extreme. He's not just imagining it, he's doing it. See as reference: Global Crossing.