....when you're finished.... actually rinse it out first.. Still I suppose the thread wouldn't have been complete without it..
Re: Re: Re: Re: Patriotism- more harm than good? Standing up for any national anthem is an American custom. Go to an international soccer game in the US or a US pro sport involving an American team against a Canadian team, all the Americans will stand for both anthems. (I've also been to a number of baseball games in Canada, and they stand for both national anthems there too.) To the people saying nations are "percieved communities" instead of something concrete, you are morons. I don't even know where to start. Let me just say that people don't go to war for "percieved communities". The US is clearly the best country in teh world, and we have a right to be proud of it. Is it arrogant?? Well, yeah. When you're top of the heap, you have a right to be arrogant. We may have never won a World Cup of soccer, but we've been holding the World Cup of all-around life since at least 1945. Why else do Vietnamese and Chinese cram themselves like sardines, in conditions that would have made 18th-century slave ships look like luxury liners, for weeks on end just to get to the US (a country that the Chinese call "Ming Guo", or "beautiful nation"? Why do Cubans climb onto flimsy rubber and wooden dinghies and travel 90 miles thru shark-infested waters to reach Florida? Why do Mexicans (and Guatemalans and Hondurans and Salvadorans who make their passage thru Mexico) give their entire life savings to an immigrant smuggler, knowing that he is likely corrupt and will, in the best case, take their money and run or, in the worst case, strand them in the desert to die, hoping against hope that, on an off-chance, he is legitimate and will lead them for hundreds of miles across barren desert to reach the United States? Why did a man in Buenos Aires strap himself to a wheel-well of a 747 bound for Los Angeles just to get a new chance at life (he froze to death en route)? Why do these people undergo these unimaginable hardships just to get to the US, despite knowing that when they get here they will be on the bottom rung of society? Why do doctors and lawyers from their home countries undergo these hardships to the US to work as janitors? Other countries have immigrants, but these immigrants for the most part do not undergo the unspeakable horrors that many immigrants coming to America from places like Vietnam and Cuba face, and they do not have immigrants in the waves that we have them. This alone should tell you quite a bit about America's greatness. To those Americans who still hold self-doubt, I'll ask--is there really anyplace you'd rather live? Your parents or grandparents or great-grandparents or whatever (even Segroves', just not all of them) came here from a DIFFERENT country, probably one in Europe, because they knew life would be better here. Just keep that in mind. Alex
Um, what exactly was wrong with what he just said?? Seriously, what, specifically, in his post do you dispute? Do you dispute that Americans enjoy freedoms people living in most countries don't? Or do you dispute that we have every right to be proud of the fact that we enjoy these freedoms? That's basically all he said, so it has to be one or the other. Either that or you're just a knee-jerk anti-American liberal. I know which I have my money on.
well, the U.S. is the best in terms of world power and economy, but there are countries such as Norway, Sweden, Canada, Belgium, and a few others in which citizens enjoy a better standard of living, and the average citizen's life is better. I guess it depends on what you prefer more, a better life for regular people or an overall more powerful country and government.
We have a worse standard of living than Belgium? I've been to Belgium, and if that's true, then I think the entire US Congress should resign.
denial and blind obedience. if hitler only had more like you under his wing...what a sad little person you are.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Patriotism- more harm than good? Alex: There are a couple of problems with all of those examples of immigrants that you list. 1. With the possible exceptions of Cuba and Mexico (the underdeveloped countries closest to the USA), those people are going to a whole host of other countries, not just the US. And yes, they go through unbearable hardships to get into France, Germany, the Netherlands, the UK, Canada, and other developed nations. If you really want I can pull up a whole host of articles detailing this. 2. Generally speaking, immigrants come here for economic opportunity first, democracy second. The Cuban-Americans in Florida would have you think otherwise, but considering that their ultimate goal is to retake the plantations that they were forced to give up in 1959, they just might be a wee bit biased. 3. Most immigrants to the US nowadays are not coming from anyplace that is at or near an economic par with the US. Why is European immigration so low compared to anywhere else or any other time in our history? Because the things that brought people here in 1910 -- more opportunity to make money -- are available more at home. 4. Immigrants increasingly come to the US, work for a few years, and then go back to their home country. Ask yourself why. Don't fall back on the "US is the best country in the world period no debate necessary" bull crap. That's the sort of thing that this thread was about in the first place. And if I dare to admit that we are not #1 in everything, it doesn't mean I want to punch myself a ticket out -- the US is my home, and I'm proud of it, and I can remain proud of it without denigrating every other country.
"4. Immigrants increasingly come to the US, work for a few years, and then go back to their home country. Ask yourself why." This is nothing new, these immigrants are called birds of feather, they migrate to America for six months to make money and then return to there homes.
Right, but if America was the greatest place in the world, the only place where anyone with half a brain would ever want to live, why would these people who risked life and limb to get here ever go back to their hellish third-world existence? (At least that's the question I'm asking Alex.)
He's not disputing anything. He just voicing an opinion that what the poster wrote was indeed vomit inducing tripe and the whole reason for this thread. Obviously the intricacies of this debate miss some people.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Patriotism- more harm than good? 'Best' is a distinctly subjective view. As other posters have said, it's your view of your country. Surely the 'best' country in the world wouldn't have your gunlaws, but I'm sure that's another topic for another day. And (the bold bit).... no, no, no. When you are top of the heap, you shouldn't be arrogant. Like I said somewhere on these boards: If there's something worse than being a bad loser, it's being a bad winner. I have no doubt the perceptions of the US by Europe (at least), have been damaged by the US attitude shown by a few posters on here. Nowadays, politics can be compared to a friendship situation. A group of friends (Europe and various other US friendly nations) would soon tire of that one friend who turns up to a party in their BMW and wearing Versace then proceeds to talk about how great they are and how great their life-style is, for the entire night. That friend might say (as some US posters on here are) that it's the fault of those who are pissed off. It might be to start off with but it soon turns out differently. The US isn't the most popular nation on earth at the moment, and the way it's going it is pushing away it's traditional friends in Europe (even the UK is doubting its position now). Simplistic yes, but my brain is done for today. Out.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Patriotism- more harm than good? ROFL. reminds me of the Harry Enfield sketch with that tacky rich middle aged couple. "We're considerably richer than yow!" Guns laws are hardly a thing to be proud of, and hundreds of countries have a democracy, It's hardly a US trademark.
Congratulations on missing the point and proving my point simultaneously. So what your saying is that all these people in Al-Qaeda are just ramming planes into buildings for the hell of it or because they are inherently evil? Sure, I think OBL is an evil bastard who deserves to die, but wanna take a look at the statement he's making and respond in some critically thoughtful manner too so no more of his minions pop up with even worse ways for people to die? I believe the latter calls for some major housecleaning in a hypocritical and narcisstic US government that considers itself God's gift to Earth.
I somehow can't accept this notion--notion that several posters put forth in that nations are nothing but some abstract concepts. I disagree. Nations are concrete entities. A nation has government, prison, police, citizen, constitution, and law. Are these concrete? Isn't a nation the smallest entity of the world community and it distinguishing from each other by these physical dimensions? By that logic (that nation is abstract), then a family (the smallest unit of a society) is an abstract too. Why not, all you can see is a couple of humans living together. But why do we love our family? Why do we love our parents or our kids and enjoy being with each other? Can't you dismiss thses feelings? Isn't this called life--the most tangible things in you heart and soul? So, when that feeling extends from a family to a country, it seems nothing has changed so the feeling is transferable. And that's called the love of the country. Am I right?
As Tommy Kuhn once said, It's all about rose-colored glasses. In this case, the glasses are red,white, and blue. And the sooner we all own up to our little spectacles, the better off we'll be. Don't get me wrong, I love this country and I like it here. But clearly, this country still has a way to go.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Patriotism- more harm than good? Of course they are, they're just not going to those countries in anything like the numbers they're coming to the US. Again, I don't dispute this, but do you really think that the US would have the economic opportunities that it does if we weren't a pillar of democratic ideals? No-one is immigrating into Cuba or China (except from North Korea, someplace that makes the PRC look like the Garden of Eden). The US is the best place in the world to live, Europe is a very very close 2nd. Basically I'd rather live in the US than Europe, but if I was European I wouldn't move here, and I certainly wouldn't stow away in a container ship for weeks on end to move here. If I was living in Vietnam or Mexico that's a different story. The US is a great place to live, so is Europe. So is Canada, Australia, Japan, Taiwan, South Korea, Israel. What do all of these countries have in common?? Democratic government and a free-market economy. The fact that Europe waited until 1945 to carbon-copy the things that have made the US a great place to live since 1783, doesn't make the US any less of a great place to live. The people who do this are generally illegal immigrants who don't have a chance to enjoy the same freedoms we do in any event. They come to the US to earn a dollar, then they go back to Mexico to spend it. A dollar in the US buys 5 chicken nuggets from the value menu at Wendy's. In Mexico, it feeds your entire family for a day. I'm not falling back on that. I believe the US is the best nation in the world, doesn't mean that I don't agree that places like Canada, Australia, New Zealand, most of Europe, Japan, Taiwan, South Korea, etc are right up there. On the other hand, places like China, North Korea, Saudi Arabia, and Afghanistan (altho it's orders of magnitude better now than it was a year ago) are not up there. Alex
I wouldn't say they're inherently evil, but yes, they are evil. In other words, we should cave in. Alex
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Patriotism- more harm than good? How do you know this so unequivocally? Seriously, how? You're 18 years old, so even if you have lived abroad (which is highly unlikely) you have no idea what it's really like to be anything other than an American. And it's that kind of attitude that gets people outside the US annoyed at us, just as you'd get annoyed by some Swede coming on here and telling you that Sweden is absolutely no doubt 100% positive the greatest country on the planet. You're talking ignorant and arrogant, spewing statements out of your ass without knowing nearly enough to back it up. You're going to BC this fall, right? I'm an alum (CSOM '93) and BC has a very big junior year abroad program. I highly recommend the full year or at least a semester if you can swing it. Get out of the US for a while -- not a touristy week-long vacation, but a real immersion -- and see what the rest of the planet is like. I'm not saying this as a "that'll teach that kid" lecture, but we all can learn from immersing ourselves in other cultures for a few months, if not longer.
If I wanted to live the country with the biggest military, and biggst economy, I'd move to the US. If I wanted to live where the best human, workers, and general rights are best, then I'd stay in Europe. If I wanted to move to the best country suggested by the UN. I'd move to Norway. How do you define best? Just by reading this thread you can see why Patriotism does more harm than good.
And comparing the "best" is pointless. Instead the world should try to raise the quality of life for all humans instead more us vs. them nonsense.