Jacen, let me be the first, then. *If the choice of ROY were exclusively between Ralph and Noonan, I would select Noonan. Let me offer the basis of that opinion, some supporting statistics, and also a reminder that I live in Portland, OR, so as not to be accused of "homerism." First of all, I think Noonan has a more complete game. Ralph has been played in one position the entire season, and his role and responsibilities have not changed. I think his game is somewhat one dimensional, although the dimension he does supply can, at times, be electrifying. I think Noonan is a much more versatile player. He can and has played as a wide midfielder, where he's performed well. He can and has played in the central midfield, where again I thought his performance, especially as a rookie, was impressive. And of course, at the end of the season because of injuries, he finally got regular time as a forward. From that time on, I think he has been one of the league's best. I love Ralph's raw athleticism, and I think he's a perfect fit for Sarachan's high pressure system. I think that athleticism gives him an edge on Noonan for long-term potential. I also think both have a tremendous head for putting themselves in dangerous positions. Where I give Noonan the advantage, however, is that he is miles ahead of Ralph in finishing his chances. The following table illustrates the considerable difference between the two players, based on MLSNet.com's 2003 regular season statistics: Key: GS - Games Started G - Goals A - Assists S - Shots SOG - Shots on Goal SP - Shooting Percentage (the percentage of shots taken to goal scored) PP90 - Points per 90 Minutes Code: [size=2] [u]Player_Name Games GS MIN G A PTS S SOG SP PP90[/u] Noonan 28 17 1646 10 7 27 44 24 [b]23% 1.48[/b] Ralph 25 22 1985 11 6 28 91 36 [b]12% 1.27[/b] [/size] I embolden the final two columns because I think statistically this is where Noonan seperates himself from Ralph. Over an average 90 minutes, Noonan is a more dangerous and productive player. Furthermore, he is over twice as efficient as Damani in finishing his opportunities. That means Chicago has to set up over 2 times as many opportunities for Ralph to score than New England does for Noonan. Those are the underlying reasons why if forced to choose between just those two players, I would select Noonan as rookie of the year. Given the entire pool, though, my voting order would read as such: 1. Borchers 2. Dunivant 3. Noonan 4. Clark 4. Ralph I think Borchers was more valuable to his team than any other MLS rookie. I think Dunivant is the leading candidate for MLS best 11 for the left back position. I've already stated my case for Noonan. Ralph and Clark, IMO, are a dead even tie.
Noonan is having better than an above average rookie year. Points wise the only thing keeping it from being historic is that Ralph is having an ever so slightly better one... but in more minutes. I said Ralph would win ROY and I will stick by that, but only because of who Noonan's production has been against and because Ralph's production was an MLS record. I would actually probably take Dunivant over both of them in a ROY campaign, but Im admitedly biased. However, if I were able to redo the 2003 MLS draft it would be Noonan who was my #1 forward taken, not Ralph. But really my point is that there isnt a whole lot seperating the two in terms of what they have shown so far, and it baffles me why anyone would say one player is clearly superior to the other. In fact there may be a signifigant seperation shown in coming years, but at this stage I dont see how anyone could make that distinction without qualifying it by saying it is their opinion.
I wasn't referring to you with the Pope comment, Tim. I was referring to RevsNumberONE (the guy I quoted), who made a Pope comment right after I said that I wasn't one of those folks who thought Pope would school Noonan. I agree that Joseph had an excellent year. He reminds me of Danny Hernandez if Hernandez had any polish whatsoever. He does the good things in defense and transitions into the offense better than many veteran d-mids (if you can even call his role that). I'm still not sure if Joseph is eligible. I remember hearing that he wasn't, but I can't remember why or where I heard it. I almost wish there was a RoY for each position (or maybe just defensive RoY and offensive RoY), because it's hard to quantify what guys like Joseph, Clark, Dunivant and Borchers add to a team. With guys like Ralph, Noonan, Magee etc, you just look at the stats, so it's hard to compare. Finally, when I said that Ralph was the "better player" I meant it in the context that he had a better season than Noonan, not that he is a better overall player than him. I'm curious as hell to see next season start so that I can see Noonan against the rest of MLS (after the heartbreaking 3-0 loss in the 2nd playoff leg ) and find out if it was just a Metrostars thing or if he can do it to the rest of the league.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 'Ralph was always the 2nd striker' It's called sarcasm, keep up... Both teams played in the OC and Damani played pretty damn well, scoring the winning goal. It is not officially tied to the MLS, but every MLS team participates and as a fan I feel it impacts my thought process on who was the better rookie. His play in the OC championship and the tournament itself solidifies my belief that Ralph was the better rookie this year.
Wow. Really bad post. Borchers #1. Eek. Kinda rowing without a paddle there aren't you? Lets review. A player's worth to a team is NOT only measured in points, and will we eventually agree that Noonan's hattrick was a joke. Almost all of Ralph's goals were meaningful, while Noonan padded his stats against a B Metro side. Ralph's goals were overall a higher quality then Noonan's (3 GOY nominees) and Ralph was a integral part of the Chicago Fire team that won the Supporters Shield (if you guys want to ignore the USOC, its your perogrative). I love people who just use numbers in the arguements. I'll throw it down right here: Ralph was a more valuable player in the run of play then Noonan ever dreamed of being. The way Ralph learned to use his teammates and set them up for chances completley changed the complexion of this year's Chicago Fire. He was one of the catalysts to the Fire's second half run where they took the Supporters Shield and USOC. And will someone please ignore Noonan's 3 goals against the Metroscrubs if they are going to make a good arguement for Noonan. By the by, Nutmeg, the thought that Borchers is more valuable then Ralph is laughable. Ralph turned the Fire from what would have been a midtable team to a treble contender. He balanced the attack and scored countless important goals over the season.
And where's Shalrie Joseph, eh? I think he's had more of an impact than Clark. He's HUGE, both in stature and in the way he covers the field. He allows Cancela, and the wingers, to do their thing for the Revs. Great stuff. It would be unfair for Noonan to get Revs ROY over him, really. I think Noonan is getting more cred now because he's made his splash recently. Damani's been working almost all year from the front, and been targeted by defenses because of it. I mean, if you take out his hat-trick against the Metros reserves, then Ralph is still way ahead on points. Noonan is the anti-metro ROY, but overall, it's Damani. Of course, they might come head-to-head in the near future. Let's wait another few weeks and see how they look...everybody else is just glad it's not Noonan AND Twellman coming at them... Overall, we're just lucky to have such a great bunch of new players.
You did actually follow MLS this season didnt you, where after insterting Borchers that Colorado went from being the worst team in MLS to a playoff team, didnt you?
Originally posted by TravisMinor_23 Wow. Really bad post. Borchers #1. Eek. Kinda rowing without a paddle there aren't you? To be honest, I am surprised you found my post distasteful. I simply tried to set forth my opinion, and unlike most on Big Soccer, I tried to back up my opinion with some justification that explains why I think the way I do. Lets review. A player's worth to a team is NOT only measured in points, Obviously I agree with you here. I would not be nominating Nat Borchers because he has more points than any other rookie. And I gave plenty of non-statistical justification as to why I would give the nod to Noonan over Ralph. It would appear you are burning a straw man. and will we eventually agree that Noonan's hattrick was a joke. No, we won't. Almost all of Ralph's goals were meaningful, while Noonan padded his stats against a B Metro side. As you just got done saying, "a player's worth to a team is NOT only measured in points." It appears you are contradicting yourself. In one breath, you are essentially saying that points don't matter. In the other, you are arguing against Noonan because in other words, his points don't mean as much as Ralph's. Ralph's goals were overall a higher quality then Noonan's (3 GOY nominees) As I said in my first post, Ralph can be electrifying. This isn't the NBA, though, so I am not giving my ROY nod to the player with the most style points. and Ralph was a integral part of the Chicago Fire team that won the Supporters Shield (if you guys want to ignore the USOC, its your perogrative). I think that is Ralph's strongest case for ROY. I think he will win the award, precisely because (1) he is a forward and forwards get the highlights and (2) he has done well on the best team in the league. I love people who just use numbers in the arguements. Then you should have no problem whatsoever with my post, because that is not what I did. I'll throw it down right here: Ralph was a more valuable player in the run of play then Noonan ever dreamed of being. Your argument is slipping, not because you don't have good evidence to support it, but because instead of focusing on the issues and ideas being discussed, you are resorting to hyperbole and straw man attacks. Stick to the issue, and you have a strong case. For example - The way Ralph learned to use his teammates and set them up for chances completley changed the complexion of this year's Chicago Fire. He was one of the catalysts to the Fire's second half run where they took the Supporters Shield and USOC. Excellent! In between this mess of a post, you actually hide some good points. I agree that these are all exceptionally strong points in Ralph's favor. For many people, this would persuade them to give the ROY nomination to Ralph over Noonan and the rest. They would have solid ground to make that decision. I would simply disagree, and I believe I have equally solid ground. People's opinions can disagree, without one or the other being completely right or wrong. And will someone please ignore Noonan's 3 goals against the Metroscrubs if they are going to make a good arguement for Noonan. No. I am sure we could go back and find some garbage points from Ralph's season. Not every single goal Damani scored this year saved the Chicago Fire's season. Points are points, and as much you would like to discredit Noonan, the fact is they are on the books and in Noonan's bag. In fact, I can make an argument that Noonan's hat trick may have been the three most important goals he scored this season. Why? Because they gave him and the rest of New England a heavy dose of confidence against the Metros before going into the playoffs. That confidence and Noonan's great form led to a convincing 2-0 win in the playoffs, when for once, EVERY goal is important. And Noonan is already one up on Ralph in the post season. By the by, Nutmeg, the thought that Borchers is more valuable then Ralph is laughable. No, it is not. But let's dissect your argument here (a weak one) a little further. Ralph turned the Fire from what would have been a midtable team to a treble contender. He balanced the attack and scored countless important goals over the season. Nat Borcher's insertion into the Colorado lineup instantly transformed the Rapids from the league's worst team to a contender in the West. Before Nat was put in the starting lineup, the Rapids had a record of 1-6-1. After Nat, Colorado's record was 10-6-6. Up to that point, Colorado was conceding nearly 2 goals a game - again worst in the league. After Nat took over in central defense, Colorado conceded about 1 goal per game, right there with the league's best. And yes, I am going to count two "meaningless games" against the Fire and Dallas, when Colorado had nothing to play for and gave up 4 goals a game. Why? Because sticking to the facts will always bring you closer to reality. Because Borchers was so instrumental in settling Colorado's defense. Because he reads the game, puts himself into the right position to make play after play after play. Because the Colorado team themselves have said the key to their season was Nat Borchers, and because I think the fact that being a rookie defender is much tougher than being a rookie forward, my nod goes to Borchers. Laugh if you want, but again, I think I have good reason to hold the opinion I do.
Well, Ralph is already in Fire (but of course I had to vote him). Maybe some more othes as good players as him ...
Ralph scored 4 of his goals against the Mutts, 2 of them with Kenny Arena playing instead of Pope. He had a goal and 2 assists against the Revs when we were missing Pierce, Llamosa and Franchino off our back line. Take away these goals and Noonan's hat trick and Noonan has more points in less minutes, which isn't that far from where we are now. Ralph, as far as I know, has 3 GOY nominees and 1 player of the week. Noonan had 1 GOY, 2 player of the week, and 1 player of the month, and led the league in scoring over the last 2 months. As for Ralph being more valuable, that's ridiculous. When Twellman went down we were in a dogfight with Columbus for last place, and at that point most people felt we were done for the season. We wouldn't even be in the playoffs if Noonan hadn't stepped it up the way he did. If Rasov had gotten injured and Ralph had picked up his scoring like that, you might have a case. No problem. But, to be fair to Noonan, you should count at least 1 of the goals, since he has 5 in his other 4 games against them and they've yet to shut him out. Noonan, for the first 2/3 of the year, played almost exclusively at wide midfielder. Until Cancela arrived, he was our most dangerous passer, and had, btw, more assists than Ralph, who you say did a great job of setting up his teammates. He was moved to forward when injuries struck. Even discounting his hat trick, he would still be near the league lead in goals, which he accomplished without the benefit of a dangerous and experienced strike partner (like Rasov). This is still a Noonan vs Ralph discussion, though. Shalrie Joseph should be rookie of the year.
By the way, if you've noticed the poll, the longer this discussion has gone, the more Ralph's lead over Noonan has shrunk. Maybe you Fire fans don't have as effective an argument as you think.
You know, you probably are right, I attacked your post because it attempted to use logic, and this mindboggling to me on BS. But you disected out the important points of my post, so there is no reason to go over them again. I think Borchers is a solid player, but its just my personal opinion he doesn't belong in this race. It was always my personal opinion that Colorado's turnaround this year was more due to the what seemingly is a yearly rebirth of John Spencer a few weeks in. I never thought Colorado was that bad, but Wes Hart singlehandedly gift wrapped 3 of the Fire's 4 goals against Colorado early in the year. But you are right, its all about opinion. I think people assume Ralph never had to carry this team because of the presence of Razov but Ralph basically single-handedly righted the Fire's ship early in the year while Razov was suspended/injured and Faria was bad followed by gone. I think Dunivant and Borchers are solid players, but I don't think that they were difference makers, in both their cases I'm not sure I would say their teams would be in much of a different situation without them. While Ralph and Noonan look to me to be indispensible to their respective teams. As for Ricardo Clark, I just don't view him as a part of the conversation anymore. I saw about 4 Metro games in the second half of the season and he was largely invisible in each of them. But I give up, its a personal choice, I like Ralph, Revs fans love Noonan, not that shocking I guess. I think Ralph will win the award going away though.
Ralph turned the Fire from a midtable team to a treble contender. That is laughable. A team with Razov, Beasley, Bocanegra and Armas and other good players. Have you stopped to consider how well Ralph would have done without these players and Razov and Beas pulling the attention away from him.
Sometimes it takes a better player to shine amongst a group of stars. Ralph had to pick up his game to compete for a spot on a team loaded with talent. He beat out a former rookie of the year in Faria (circumstantial at best), a (by all accounts) very promising forward, and a first round draft pick for a spot on the starting 11. Look at all the press Ralph has recieved this season. Now look at the press Razov, Beasley, Boca, Armas, and Sarachan have recieved (not to mention smaller stories like Curtin, Jaqua, and Faria). With all that star power around him Ralph stepped up his game and put forth a season that made everybody say, "wow."
:sigh:, yes. I did consider it. In fact I saw it. I saw it when Razov was suspended and injured. I saw it when Beasley, Boca, and Armas were on extended international duty. Did you see the preseason predictions? The thing that is different about the Fire right now then in prior years is that they have to excellent, healthy forwards for an extended period of time. Ralph is obviously the person who changed that. Ralph demands heavy attention offensively, as does Razov, and Beasley. Which makes it quite difficult to really handle the Fire right now. In fact the majority of Ralph's goals came early in the year, when we were dealing with a number of these absences, which makes him all the more valuable in my mind. The most impressive thing about Ralph has been his unselfishness in the last two months, he hasn't pushed to keep scoring but has accepted a role and the Fire's recent success is largely a credit to that.
Heres a mountain of stats and stuff: Code: Pat Noonan ============== 1: Mid, 8m Chi 2: Mid, 34m, 1a Clb 3: DNP 4: Mid, 33m SJ 5: DNP 6: Mid, 32m, KC 7: Mid, 7m, Chi 8: Mid, 24m, 2a Clb 9: Fwd, 78m, KC 10: Mid, 90m, 1a Col 11: Fwd, 27m, DC 12: Fwd, 62m, 1a Col 13: Fwd, 69m, LA 14: Fwd, 81m, 1g, 1a Met 15: Mid, 69m Dal 16: Mid, 45m Chi 17: Mid, 100m, 1g Clb 18: Mid, 67m, DC 19: Fwd, 25m DC 20: Fwd, 16m SJ 21: Fwd, 79m LA 22: Mid, 29m, 1a Chi 23: Fwd, 90m, 1g SJ 24: Fwd, 90m, 2g Met 25: Fwd, 100m Col 26: Fwd, 74m Clb 27: Fwd, 90m, 1g Dal 28: Fwd, 68m DC 29: Fwd, 90m, 1g Met 30: Fwd, 70m, 3g Met 31: Fwd, 90m, 1g Met Mid: 12gm, 538, 1g, 5a, 1.17 pp90 Fwd: 17gm, 1199, 10g, 2a, 1.65 pp90 vs. SJ: 3gm, 139m, 1g, 1.29 pp90 vs. KC: 2gm, 110m, 0.00 pp90 vs. LA: 2gm, 148m, 0.00 pp90 vs. Dal: 2 gm, 159m, 1g, 1.13 pp90 vs. Col: 3gm, 252m, 2a, 0.71 pp90 vs. Chi:: 4gm, 89m, 1a, 1.01 pp90 vs. DC: 4gm, 187m, 0.00 pp90 vs. Met: 5gm, 421m, 7g, 1a, 3.14 pp90 vs. Clb: 4gm, 240m, 1g, 3a, 1.87 pp90 Damani Ralph =============== 1: Fwd, 15m NE 2: DNP 3: Fwd, 25m, 1g KC 4: DNP 5: Fwd(?), 19m NE 6: Fwd, 90m, 1a Col 7: Fwd, 86m, 1g SJ 8: Fwd, 58m, DC 9: Fwd, 90m, 1g Met 10: Fwd, 90m, 1g Dal 11: Fwd, 90m 1g KC 12: Fwd, 94m, 1g Met 13: Fwd, 100m SJ 14: Fwd, 90m DC 15: Fwd, 90m, 1g(pk), 2a NE 16: Fwd, 89m KC 17: Fwd, 100m, 1g, 1a Met 18: Fwd, 100m, 1g Clb 19: Fwd, 90m DC 20: Fwd, 87m, 1a LA 21: Fwd, 90m, 1g, 1a Met 22: Fwd, 80m NE 23: Fwd, 100m, Clb 24: Fwd, 89m, 1g LA 25: Fwd, 90m, Dal 26: Fwd, 76m, 1a Col 27: DNP 28: DNP 29: Fwd, 64m Col 30: DNP 31: Fwd, 82m DC vs. KC: 3gm, 204m, 2g, 1.76 pp90 vs. SJ: 2gm, 186m, 1g, 0.96 pp90 vs. LA: 2gm, 176m, 1g, 1a, 1.53 pp90 vs. Dal: 2gm, 180m, 1g, 1.00 pp90 vs. Col: 2gm, 140m, 1a, 0.64 pp90 vs. Met: 4gm, 374m, 4g, 2a 2.43 pp90 vs. NE: 4gm, 204m, 1g, 2a 1.76 pp90 vs. DC: 4gm, 310m, 0.00 pp90 vs. Clb 2gm, 200m, 1g, 1a, 1.35 pp90 1st 10: 8gm, 473m, 4g, 1a, 1.71 pp90 2nd 10: 10gm, 930m, 4g, 3a, 1.06 pp90 3rd 10: 7gm, 589m, 2g, 2a, 0.91 pp90 key ========= g = goal(s) m = minute(s) gm = game(s) a = assist(s) fwd = played game as forward mid = played game as midfielder pp90 = points they would gather in 90 based on the points per minute rate Some numbers may be slightly off but I double checked the big ones. Close enough to give you a gist. Anyways, people harping on Noonan's elevated total against the Metros should consider 2 things. First, he played more minutes against them then anyone else, and all of them at forward. Even if he scored at the same rate against them as everyone else it would be a higher total then the rest. Second, while his ppg is still high against the Metro's, its not that much higher than Ralph's (3.14 vs. 2.43). Of the 8 opponents they played in common, Noonan posted a better pp90 against 5 of them. Against DC they were equal as both gathered none. The 2 exceptions were when Ralph posted excellent pp90 against LA and KC, whereas Noonan was held scoreless. Of course the sample sizes are relatively small, so putting too much emphasis on them is sketchy, but it does illustrate that Noonan had good success against most teams in MLS as well. Overall Id say that Ralph was statisticly more impressive after looking at it deeper, but Id qualify that by saying the difference is still pretty small.
Btw, I should add that I offer those statistics, or any statistics for that matter, to "prove" one player is better than the other. I offer them to describe what has occured during the year. In this last case people claimed that all Noonan has shown is that he can score against the Metros, which is not true. It would be more accurate that Noonan has shown he can produce against any MLS team (especially NY/NJ) with the exception of DC, LA and KC. Of those 3, 2 of them he has played less than 2 full games against each, and so its hard to draw any conclusions from that. I should further add that these statistics in this case arent offered to prove anything, just to describe what has happened this year to date. My point being to anyone who groans at the sight of statistics, that if you are viewing them as anything but tools to help supplement your observations or as a means of objectively describing what has transpired, then you are misusing them.