Paper Communism Anyone?

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by listentobobmarley, Aug 31, 2002.

  1. listentobobmarley

    Jan 5, 2001
    I am a paper communist. On paper i think it is a great idea, but i feel that it is doomed to fail.

    Discuss
     
  2. Cruickinator

    Cruickinator New Member

    Jan 14, 2002
    Nottingham
    Me too. Are you American isn't it a bit dangerous to say that over there. My problem with communism is that it has been used a smoked screen for depositive goverments. Communism could work if it was done in a democratic way. Lenin rejected democracy not Marx.
     
  3. listentobobmarley

    Jan 5, 2001
    Free Speech is Fun.

    I dont think i could ever trust someone enough to run a true communist form of government
     
  4. Cruickinator

    Cruickinator New Member

    Jan 14, 2002
    Nottingham
    This is my point communism in my opion should not be a form of goverment but an objective of a democratic goverment.
     
  5. olafgb

    olafgb New Member

    Jun 6, 2001
    Germany
    It will never work without a government oppressing the people. Communism a great idea? Don't think so, it's a misbelief that all people are equal. I also wouldn't play the game of equal payment with someone uneducated who's cleaning the streets.
     
  6. metrocorazon

    metrocorazon Member

    May 14, 2000
    Again how many times we have to go over this? Thats not the way it works.
     
  7. olafgb

    olafgb New Member

    Jun 6, 2001
    Germany
    Didn't know that you want to go into detail. Nevertheless it is more than just a transition problem from paper to reality. The idea of communism bases on the book "Das Kapital" by Karl Marx. This book has many ideological mistakes and other wrong assumptions (e.g. outcome of work depends on workers only; progress and machines are not included). If you want to put it that way: it's a fiction novel that unfortunately by some is claimed to be a solution for the reality.
     
  8. zverskiy yobar

    zverskiy yobar BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Mar 10, 2002
    Marxist ideology is not a cure , its a diagnosis.
     
  9. metrocorazon

    metrocorazon Member

    May 14, 2000
    What I meant to say was that Communism doesn't work the way you stated. It doesnt reward the lazy or uneducated. What it does is bridge the gap on social classes. A doctor wont be making the same as a street cleaner, but he also wont be making 200X more. Just because its communism doesnt guarantee you a job either. If youre stagnant and wont work to your capabilities, youre out of the job. Simple as that.

    Many people also posted about freedom of speech. Does capitalism guarantee you this freedom of speech? No a democracy does. That has nothing to do with communism. You can have elected leaders, freedom of speech, religion, etc.. When in a communism environment.

    The example that you guys know of are why this thread got started. WHy Communism is good on paper and bad in real life. Because you see the abuse and misuse of it. Thats why we are saying its good on paper.

    If all you had to go by for capitalism is Arab kings and Enron excutives, then you will also think THAT sucks.
     
  10. Cruickinator

    Cruickinator New Member

    Jan 14, 2002
    Nottingham
    I agree with everything metrocorazon but what most people don't know about Marx's work is that even he recognised the important of capitalsim and knew that true communism can be achevied when the peak of global capaltism has been acheived and then the wealth should be distrubuted.
    One thing I don't think Marx covered is that people should be givin the same oppitunties in life reguardless of there social background.

    We are also heading towards communism where peoplle are startin to demand a narrowing of the social gap which has infused. But this is going agaisnt Marx path to communism as they are tryin to world the of gloal capitalism.
     
  11. bocatuna

    bocatuna New Member

    Aug 8, 2002
    England
    I always thought that Marx's dialectical materalism theory was highly debatable, as it has been proven that history can be interpreted as any number of Meta Narratives, e.g that all history has been the story of the rise of Liberialism, or feminisim and women's emancipation etc.

    If Marxism view that all history is the history of class struggle, concluding in the Socialist Utopia i.e it's destiny, is highly debatable then surley this means that Marx's writings are fundamentally flawed as well.

    There was also critism of the superstructure theory, but failed to pay proper attention to it at university and have forgotten.

    As for Marxism in practice , I always felt that his theory was incompatable with human nature, greed, selfishness, ambition, a need to believe in a define being, patriotism, individuality, competiveness, etc..


    Or am I just talking crap?
     
  12. obie

    obie New Member

    Nov 18, 1998
    NY, NY
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Communism doesn't work in communes, so why would anyone expect it work effectively in large countries?
     
  13. Cruickinator

    Cruickinator New Member

    Jan 14, 2002
    Nottingham
    Marx was flawed he was for a joyless society almost. This is another thing that gets me what Marx wrote is not the be all and end all of communism. If a country wants to turn into a democratic communian then they need to find a way that they can implement it into thier own socieity.

    Obie Communism never worked becasue the always had dictorships which relied on deposistism.
     
  14. GringoTex

    GringoTex Member

    Aug 22, 2001
    1301 miles de Texas
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    What Marx taught us about communism is worthless. What he taught us about capitalism is priceless.
     
  15. spejic

    spejic Cautionary example

    Mar 1, 1999
    San Rafael, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    I am also a paper communist. I think we should all make as much paper as we can, and whenever anyone needs paper, they can take some.
     
  16. arsenal

    arsenal New Member

    Dec 22, 2000
    southern illinois
    History has shown that Marxism never has and never will work.
     
  17. Cruickinator

    Cruickinator New Member

    Jan 14, 2002
    Nottingham
    No it has shown that men will use the idealolgy of communism and corrupt those belifs to thier own selfish needs.
     
  18. listentobobmarley

    Jan 5, 2001
    i think capitalism sucks, i that it has flaws, i think that our gov is messed up, i dont think that communism would work, because i think even i would abuse my power if i was in charge of a communist form of government.


    "Some animals are more equal than others"
     
  19. RichardL

    RichardL BigSoccer Supporter

    May 2, 2001
    Berkshire
    Club:
    Reading FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    It was a nice idea in its time. Typically in the 19th century the workers would lead a hand-to-mouth existence while the factory owners and adminstrators (i.e. white collar middle class & above) would be wealthy. The idea that people could work together for the common good rather than just for personal gain is a noble one - it's just a there's a rather huge spanner in the works in that human nature ensures it doesn't work.

    An example would be a two football teams. One purely capitalist with players on individual bonues for scoring goals/whatever only (i.e. no win bonus, just what they achieve). The odds are you'd get strikers who'd always go for goal themselves rather than pass to better placed teammates as they'd only be interested in their bonus and not really care what happens to the other players.
    The communist team (in this idealistic/unrealistic world) would only have win & draw bonuses to play for and theoretically would work as a team to help one another. The problem being that communism is rather inefficient, so the goverment decides to make each football team have 50 players rather than 11, but keep the team's win bonus the same. There is now less incentive to win as the rewards will be much less. There'll also be a broader skill level but the good players will get discouraged as being 50 a side their skills have little impact and their extra efforts gain little reward. Players who aren't so good know they can hide in the team and get away with a minimum of effort.


    Communism is flawed and just will not work on a national scale, but it does have its good points and those shouldn't be overlooked just because a number of military dictators have used it as a vehicle to build their own power.

    Remember there are, and have been, pretty unpleasant capitalist dictatorships too.
     
  20. spejic

    spejic Cautionary example

    Mar 1, 1999
    San Rafael, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    > because i think even i would abuse my power if i
    > was in charge of a communist form of government.

    Not just you. Jesus' apostles and other followers tried to create a commune after Jesus croaked. It fell apart because the regular followers became upset that the apostles were mooching more of the stuff than was their share.
     
  21. RichardL

    RichardL BigSoccer Supporter

    May 2, 2001
    Berkshire
    Club:
    Reading FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    I think it kind of stands to reason that anyone who wants to be a dictator is not the sort of person who should be running a country (communist or capitalist - Iraq is not communist after all, nor is Zimbabwe to name but two)
     
  22. AFCA

    AFCA Member

    Jul 16, 2002
    X X X rated
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Iran
    I don't think marxism will work. But there are certain ideas behind it that are 100% correct.

    It's absurd that some 'top manager' makes half a million in a year while others work their ass off for a wage they can hardly live on.

    I firmly believe in a more honest distribution of wealth. You can have all the education you want... nobody's work is worth that much. No man has the right to live in a house with 25 bedrooms and 18 bathrooms, have 5 cars parked outside etc, etc.
     
  23. CrewDust

    CrewDust Member

    May 6, 1999
    Columbus, Ohio
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There's a lot of people in West Virgina that would disagree with not being allowed to have five cars out front.


    Sorry, just could not resist.


    I don't personally mind that Bill Gates has Billions in Wealth. But if it is found that a person broke the law to obtain the wealth then it should be seized just like they do to drug dealers.
     
  24. RichardL

    RichardL BigSoccer Supporter

    May 2, 2001
    Berkshire
    Club:
    Reading FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    I have mixed feelings on this. If somebody has taken a gamble and set up a business then why shouldn't he reap the rewards? People moan about Bill Gates, but how many jobs has he created worldwide? It must be thousands. The ones that annoy me a managers who are hired, do sod all for a couple of years, then leave or move sideways adding no contribution at all to the company - but that's just my own bitter view from experience.
     
  25. deejay

    deejay Member+

    Feb 14, 2000
    Tarpon Springs, FL
    Club:
    Jorge Wilstermann
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    Actually it fell apart because of the persecution of Christians by the Saducees, most ran away to Antiochy. And finally because of the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans.
     

Share This Page