PBP: P01135809 Trump Espionage, Coup, Conspiracy, Racketeering, Fraud & Obstruction Trial Thread

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by The Jitty Slitter, Jun 10, 2023.

?

What will be the outcome?

  1. Guilty

  2. Not guilty

  3. Pardons himself

  4. Goes into exile in Snowden's flat

  5. Some other fascism

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  1. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    #1 The Jitty Slitter, Jun 10, 2023
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2023
    On 8 June 2023 Trump was indicted in the Southern District of Florida on 31 counts of espionage and 6 counts of obstruction/conspiracy by Special Counsel Jack Smith. (counts 1-37). Co defendant Nauta was also charged on 6 counts (counts 32-38).

    Case Resources & Filings
    The 49 page Indictment
    Special Counsel Smith's press conference - CNN

    Who's who for the case (accepted initials for those typing on phones)

    Special Counsel Jack Smith (JS)
    Waltine Nauta - Trump Aide/Valet (WN)
    Evan Corcoran - Trump lawyer (EC)
    Christina Bobb - Trump lawyer/record keeper (CB)
    Jim Trusty - Trump counsel (JT)

    [to be continued]

    Commentary and analysis

    Preet Bharara - former US Attorney SDNY, knows prosecutorial procedure/strategy etc like the back of his hand (Stay tuned podcast)
    Ken White - very high quality legal analysis (Serious trouble podcast)
    Lawfare - Ben Wittes and experts with detailed legal analysis. (Lawfare podcast and articles)
    Marcy Wheeler - independent natsec journalist with forensic writing on the case (empty wheel)
    Andrew Weissmann - ex-Mueller Investigation prosecutor (Prosecuting Donald Trump)
    Just Security/Ryan Goodman - Natsec law professor (Just Security)
    Opening Arguments - long running/quality legal podcast (Opening Arguments)
    Ben Meiselas / Legal AF - Progressive/Dem activist legal coverage (Legal AF)
    Mueller She Wrote - 'Resistance' style coverage with extra cats (MSW)
    Joyce Alene (Vance) - ex-US Attorney Alabama/Law Prof (Civil Discourse)

    [I'll update this reference post - DM me for additions]
     
  2. usscouse

    usscouse BigSoccer Supporter

    May 3, 2002
    Orygun coast
    Loading up on microwave popcorn.
    I can tape, oops DVR MSNBC so I won’t miss their slant.
    Then I’ll do that with Fox to check how the hotdog eating contest is going.

    Got to check SNL as well. :)

    First page for once. :rolleyes:
     
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  3. Cascarino's Pizzeria

    Apr 29, 2001
    New Jersey, USA
    I think he'd flee the US on some benefactor's private jet if he could. There is no hope for him especially when the Georgia indictment drops.
     
  4. Boandlkramer

    Boandlkramer Member+

    Apr 9, 2009
    Samma Weltmeister!
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    And still try to run for office while abroad
     
  5. chaski

    chaski Moderator
    Staff Member

    Mar 20, 2000
    redacted
    Club:
    Lisburn Distillery FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Guam
    He needs a dust filter for a Hoover Max Extract Pressure Pro, model 60.
     
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  6. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    Preet's podcast with Joyce Vance dropped and has a free 30mins for us plebs

    Main takeaways for me

    1. It's really not at all clear what defence Trump can make on the first 31 counts.

    2. It's quite possible he will get indicted for the original stealing of the documents in D.C. That crime happened in DC while the retention/obstruction crimes happened much later in Florida.

    3. The indictment is alarming in terms of damage to national security and there is really no way to know who trump leaked info to
     
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  7. roby

    roby Member+

    SIRLOIN SALOON FC, PITTSFIELD MA
    Feb 27, 2005
    So Cal
    1st in with "we got him now"! :coffee:
     
  8. usscouse

    usscouse BigSoccer Supporter

    May 3, 2002
    Orygun coast
    I’m hoping that Smith will have some answers for us on your item 3.
    Trump is a blabber, making himself important.
     
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  9. SamScouse

    SamScouse Member+

    Jun 1, 2015
    Toronto
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    I'm aware that his motivation in grabbing the docs is not going to be a factor in the court case - the facts of what he did are the issue and straying into motives could lose the jury and dilute the factual arguments.

    But I'd like to see a lot more questions along that line in the media. It's been touched on a few times of course but they should ramp this up bigtime to try to get inside the heads of every member of the audience.

    The starting point is: "The only reason he did it is because it benefitted him personally. That is completely obvious. The same as anyone who steals anything."

    (Side note: no more use of "mis-handling" ffs. Stealing! And "state secrets" not "documents")

    Then do a Fukker Carlson on him..... just asking questions!

    "Could he benefit financially? Who would want to pay for that information? MBS? Putin? Kim? All of the above?" Deep dive into his dealings with each of them over the years.

    Hammer away at this every damn day.
     
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  10. Funkfoot

    Funkfoot Member+

    May 18, 2002
    New Orleans, LA
    I'm afraid to make any predictions. :(
     
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  11. soccernutter

    soccernutter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    Aug 22, 2001
    Near the mountains.
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #11 soccernutter, Jun 10, 2023
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2024
    (not using the quote function for readability)

    (https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/t...e-music-thread.2113440/page-292#post-41453576 post 7300)
    Terms (for quick reference):

    C - Confidential (least restrictive)
    S - Secret (middle restrctive)
    TS - Top Secret (most restrictive)
    NOFORN - No Foreign Nationals - distribution to non-US citizens is prohibited, regardless of their clearance or access permissions (NO FOReign National access allowed).
    SPECIAL HANDLING - Only specified individuals are allowed to see the document.
    ORCON - Originator controls dissemination and/or release of the document.
    REL TO USA FVEY - Distribution of the information with appropriate personnel from Five Eyes (Australia, the United Kingdom, Canada, and New Zealand)
    REL TO USA FVY - Mistype here (#8 - https://www.emptywheel.net/2023/06/09/defendant-1s-38-count-indictment/) - Should read REL TO USA FVEY
    TK - Talent Keyhole (access given to people with the need to know - based on knowledge, not necessarily security clearance)
    REL - Followed by country codes indices what country(s) the document can be released to
    FR - Formerly Restricted
    RSEN - Risk Sensitive Notice
    HCS-P - HUMINT Control System - Product - Human Intelligence provided by the CIA
    SI - Special Intelligence - communications intercepts (formerly COMINT)
    FISA - Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act - Allows for the collection of foreign intelligence on domestic soil

    CIPA - Classified Information Procedures Act - Statue where the Government needs to introduce classified documents that the defendant(s) needs to have access to, and allows the court to define the scope of use (if any) the defendants have with regards to the classified documents. ​

    From @roadkit (https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/t...e-music-thread.2113440/page-294#post-41454036 post 7340)

    Not to mention SCI: "Sensitive Compartmented Information" which encompasses a lot of what you have noted above.​

    From @Bootsy Collins (https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/t...e-music-thread.2113440/page-294#post-41454072 post 7343)

    IMO, for our purposes, all that matters is the level of classification, which is defined as:

    CONFIDENTIAL -- disclosure is considered likely to damage national security.
    SECRET -- disclosure is considered likely to cause serious damage to national security.
    TOP SECRET -- disclosure is considered likely to cause exceptionally grave damage to national security.

    Most of the rest of the information in classified document markings should not be considered as indicating the importance of the information contained within, or how bad things would be if it got out. That's the job of CONFIDENTIAL or SECRET or TOP SECRET. But just because you have a TS clearance doesn't mean it's OK for you to see anything and everything at that level. So most of the rest of the information in document markings -- SCI channels, dissemination caveats, etc. -- is meant to narrow the pool of people to whom it can be distributed. That's not because anything is "more secret than Top Secret" or anything like that, but simply because regardless of the level at which some info is classified, if there's no need for someone to look at something, then it's better if they don't -- the fewer people that know about something, obviously, the lower the likelihood of improper disclosure, whether intentional or accidental.​

    And another from @Bootsy Collins, replying to roadkit (https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/t...e-music-thread.2113440/page-294#post-41454088 post 7344)

    Only three of the things he listed are SCI channels; and if you're trying to understand document markings, "SCI" isn't really used as a document marking. If a document is to be handled within one or more SCI channels, identifiers for those specific channels will be included in the document markings.​

    For people who are really interested in this for some reason, a 2012 version of the CAPCO guide is unclassified and posted on the DNI's website; it's the first result on a Google search.​

    And here's the link: https://www.dni.gov/files/documents/FOIA/Public_CAPCO_Register and Manual v5.1.pdf

    Jencks Act - basically, it means that the prosecution has to give the defense any material that could possibly discredit a witness the prosecution uses. This is for federal cases.
     
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  12. soccernutter

    soccernutter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    Aug 22, 2001
    Near the mountains.
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The only place he'd go would be to Scotland so he can play golf. But they don't want him (and if convicted, might deny him entry).

    Here's a bit from the BBC

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65862990

    [​IMG]

    To claim that these actions were taken in the objective interest of the law is laughable. Where was this interest with the Clintons or Hunter Biden?

    As we all say, if there are legit charges, then charge them.
     
  13. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
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    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    Lawfare is saying that the indictment seems to suggest Trump had motive in stealing the documents. So it doesn't make the case that he gave the stuff to foreign governments, but rather alleges he may have hoarded the stuff with business motivations. We don't know what evidence will come out in that regard
     
  14. soccernutter

    soccernutter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    Aug 22, 2001
    Near the mountains.
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The recording is very clear on intent. He's absolutely done on that considering that he had previously declassified documents. But which charge(s) does that apply to? Maybe one, maybe all.

    I wonder if there is a plea on the table?
     
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  15. JamesA

    JamesA Member+

    Dec 7, 2004
    Victoria
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    The timing on this trial will be fascinating. Key dates we know.

    NYS Trial: March 2024
    GOP Convention: July 2024
    Election: November 2024

    And with the SP pushing for a quick trial, could this actually happen July or August 2024?

    It's not out of the question he could literally win the nomination, get convicted by the feds and run for election from jail.

    Could the justice expedite this and send to trial within 6 months?
     
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  16. soccernutter

    soccernutter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    Aug 22, 2001
    Near the mountains.
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Updated to add CIPA
     
  17. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
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    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    CIPA will be quite central to the trial, in terms of how you can use classified info in a public trial
     
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  18. JamesA

    JamesA Member+

    Dec 7, 2004
    Victoria
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Could a plea legally remove his constitutional right to run?
     
  19. SamScouse

    SamScouse Member+

    Jun 1, 2015
    Toronto
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    he's currently in the Deny and Deflect stage, and will bring in every Delay tactic he's ever used any minute now.

    I believe (from CNN reports) that he'll bring in a new lawyer on Tuesday, so there's a request for delay #1.

    in a couple of months he'll fire that guy/gal ... delay #2.

    rinse and repeat until the judge gets sick and tired of it. (unless it's Cannon who will let it continue ad infi-effing-nitum)
     
  20. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I heard reporting that that district tends to have speedy trials due to lack of backlog. This trial might happen within 70 days.
     
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  21. soccernutter

    soccernutter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    Aug 22, 2001
    Near the mountains.
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Nope. There is nothing in the Constitution that would prohibit him (or anyone) from running with a criminal conviction.
     
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  22. soccernutter

    soccernutter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    Aug 22, 2001
    Near the mountains.
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I doubt Trump will fire his next lawyer since so few want to work with him.
     
  23. Chesco United

    Chesco United Member+

    DC United
    Jun 24, 2001
    Chester County, PA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    As Debs did!
     
  24. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Bayern München
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Fascist Hellscape
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Belgium
    Didn't he already hire a new high end lawyer a while back?
     
  25. Cascarino's Pizzeria

    Apr 29, 2001
    New Jersey, USA
    #25 Cascarino's Pizzeria, Jun 10, 2023
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2023
    Someone said there's nothing on the books that would prevent him from running and serving from the clink. "Good afternoon, guards. Here to see the president to sign a bill. Do you really have to search my asshole again?"
     
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