Opinions please?

Discussion in 'Referee' started by SCV-Ref, Nov 19, 2018.

  1. SCV-Ref

    SCV-Ref Member

    Spurs
    Australia
    Feb 22, 2018
    Hi All,
    I'm seeking opinions about the following scenario. (19uBoys...deep in 2nd half..tied)
    Attacking red team awarded DFK 5 yards outside of the area, a yard beyond the top of the arc.
    Red team asks for 10. Blue team builds a sizeable wall a yard beyond the pk spot.
    Meanwhile, a blue defender decides to park himself on the goal line, about midway between keeper and goal post.
    He's doing this obviously to annoy the red team. (already on yellow..he is designated ass of this team)
    Before the kick is taken, and before the whistle, everyone is pretty set and the red bench is going nuts, as are a few players on the red team, all screaming the same thing. "There's a player on the goal line!!"
    Should I:
    1. Ignore the screams, blow the whistle and see how this plays out?
    2. Hold up, and beckon for the blue player to come off the goal line because it's nothing more than intimidation?
    3. Have a word to the player saying that if he stays there there is a pretty good chance he will be "interfering with an opponent"?
    Thoughts?
     
  2. sulfur

    sulfur Member

    Oct 22, 2007
    Ontario, Canada
    Third option.

    FIFA put out a thing in their last Futuro talking about players that intentionally position themselves in offside positions on free kicks. The recommendation is to inform them verbally before allowing the kick to occur.

    If the PIOP is in direct line between ball and GK, then as soon as the kick is taken, the recommendation is to call the offence.

    In your situation, if the ball goes ANYWHERE near the player on the goal line, then interfering with opponent.
     
  3. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    I think you got your Blue and Red garbled along the way (I didn't quote because I think that might block you from editing to fix it) . . . I agree with @sulfur on the merits.
     
    Geko repped this.
  4. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    Did you mean red attacker instead of blue defender? Why can't a defender be behind the wall?
     
    Geko repped this.
  5. Sport Billy

    Sport Billy Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 25, 2006
    Spot on - assuming we all know what he meant in his discription
     
  6. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm assuming you mixed your red and blue up, and you meant there was an attacker on the goal line.

    If that's the case, you should verbally warn the player that he is in an offside position. Since he isn't in the GK line of sight, you don't really have a reason to immediately call him offside when the kick is taken.

    But, if he makes any movement that could distract the GK when the kick is taken, or the ball goes ANYWHERE near him then blow the whistle for offside.
     
  7. Rufusabc

    Rufusabc Member+

    May 27, 2004
    There is a “genius” born every minute at the u16-19 boys level.
     
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  8. Casper

    Casper Member+

    Mar 30, 2001
    New York
    He's allowed to stand there as long as he's not interfering, right? No rule against lining up offside. All I see is he probably is causing any potential goal here to be called back for offside or impeding the goalie. If he wants to waste it, I say let him. U11 I would probably try to correct and explain - U19 I say let him be stupid until he actually breaks a rule.
     
    jarbitro repped this.
  9. Rufusabc

    Rufusabc Member+

    May 27, 2004
    The problem, realistically, is the other team being upset at the tactic. We all know the tactic is stupid, and pretty much useless if the ball comes anywhere near goal.

    In my toolbox in this situation would be my voice. A “quick don’t worry boys I got this” might be enough to deflect the situation and make the opponents realize that the attackers are shooting themselves in the foot.
     
    frankieboylampard repped this.
  10. SCV-Ref

    SCV-Ref Member

    Spurs
    Australia
    Feb 22, 2018
    Yeah...thanks for picking up on that folks...
    The reason for the mix up is I was trying too hard. In the actual match, the blue team was attacking, but I decided to change it around for this post to be in line with every tutorial ever where red team attacks and blue defends....tripped myself up.
    Thanks everyone for knowing what I meant rather than what I said. (and to think I proof read it too)
     
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  11. SCV-Ref

    SCV-Ref Member

    Spurs
    Australia
    Feb 22, 2018
    OK..so what I actually did was fairly similar to suggestions. It's just that I thought about it afterwards a lot (too much) and thought it would be good to get some input.

    I yelled loudly at the kicker "hold up guys...hold up".
    I looked at the attacker on the goal line, and held out both arms in a palms up, neck down, shoulders up...the universal look of "what?" There was too much ambient noise to be verbal without running there.
    He came off the goal line and joined the wall.

    And thanks to @sulfur .. I did not know FIFA put out a thing in their last Futuro
     
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  12. Rufusabc

    Rufusabc Member+

    May 27, 2004
    Yep. That’s perfect.
     
  13. wguynes

    wguynes Member

    Dec 10, 2010
    Altoona, IA
    Put on your Big Boy voice and say loudly to the panicked defenders.

    "Don't worry! He can be there, but if he does anything to interfere he'll be offside!"​

    Make it so the people in the nosebleed section can hear this.
    Then call it if/when he does.

    As follow up for later: "How in the world did your player not know, coach? That guy 2 blocks down the street knew."
     
  14. Ickshter

    Ickshter Member

    Manchester City
    Mar 14, 2014
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yup.

    I had this happen this year in a HS match. Attacker is back by the keeper and the defending team is complaining, I just said loud enough for all to here, "Don't worry guys, as soon as he interferes with the play I am calling it." Attacking teammates are now yelling at their own player to "get onside". No issues the rest of the match.
     
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  15. Sport Billy

    Sport Billy Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 25, 2006
    This does bring up the scenario of attackers standing in front of the keeper on corner kicks. (not offside)
    I think many officials mishandle this.
    I watched a ref the other day tell an attacker that he can't stand in front of the keeper.
    He made him move before the ball was in play.
    How can you be impeding a dead ball?

    Keepers have no special protection. If you can mark a field player, you can mark the keeper.
    ONCE THE BALL IS IN PLAY, there's offside and impeding issues to be concerned with.
    But, assuming a player can stay onside, there is no reason they can't mark a keeper.
     
  16. ArgylleRef

    ArgylleRef Member

    Jan 23, 2004
    Lansing, KS
    No, Keepers don't have any special protection, but proactive referees know that the keeper is a flashpoint. There are ten other guys on the field that fear if the keeper is hurt, they have to put on the gloves and funny shirt. And GKs are insane, I know because I am.

    In the corner kick scenario, and I'd probably do the same on a close in free kick, I hold up play and talk to the keeper and his marker (and the defender who is trying to scrape him off the keeper). I explain that any player has a right to take up any position on the field. However, once the ball is in play, that attacker has two legal choices; maintain his position without moving or sticking his arms out, or play the ball. Then I watch during the kick. Once the ball is in the air, if he looks back at the GK and takes a step, he is impeding or obstructing. Even after the talking to, they always do it that first time. But no one does it a second time.
     
  17. Geko

    Geko Member

    Sacremento Geckos
    United States
    May 25, 2016
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's the thing to glean from this, for both scenarios. I don't have the authority to make a player move where he's legally allowed. But I need to pay attention to it. I might even need to give a shout of "I see him, keeper" so he doesn't get mad and throw a punch, etc...
    (here's the secret: when you do draw attention to it, it reminds the keeper that you're paying attention so he doesn't shove the attacker to the ground)
     
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  18. Sport Billy

    Sport Billy Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 25, 2006
    Yes, this is the way to handle it. Incorrecting telling the player he can not stand there is not.
     
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  19. Soccer Dad & Ref

    Oct 19, 2017
    San Diego
    Is this true?
     
  20. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    Pretty much. Moving into the path of an opponent while not in playing distance of the ball is the foul of impeding (in HS still called by its old name, obstruction). It is either a DFK (if contact is made) or IFK (if not contact is made).

    And like I think @ArgylleRef is saying, once a player is demonstrating that he is attempting to interfere with the keeper before the kick is taken, I am pretty quick to identify impeding when he moves to interfere with the keeper once the kick is taken. Unfortunately, some youth coaches think this is a great strategy, and teach their players to do this. And even more unfortunately, many reffing youth games don't recognize it and let attackers unfairly interfere with the GK. Once you see the attacker playing the I'm-going-to-move-with-every-step-the-GK-takes game before the kick is taken, that player (at least in youth games) almost always continues after the kick, and commits a foul.

    As others have this is a good opportunity for preventive officiating and making both players clear that you're watching--that way the attacker is on notice and the GK knows she is being protected. While typically that is all that is required, attacker behavior can (rarely) go beyond the warning stage--if the attacker is initiating contact with the GK rather than just getting in front may (after a warning) become cautionable as USB (it cannot be a foul until the ball is in play). But typically the problem is solved when the attacker continues as the ball is kicked and the foul is called, making clear it is not a strategy that is going to work.
     
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  21. Soccer Dad & Ref

    Oct 19, 2017
    San Diego
    Thanks for the explanation. What if the keeper is stepping side to side and the attacker mirrors the move? Is that impeding?
     
  22. FootyPDX

    FootyPDX Member

    Portland Timbers
    England
    Nov 21, 2017
    So a keeper has a special bubble that players need to stay out of? How big is this bubble and in what law is it specified? Or are you saying that when a ball is coming into the PA that no attacking player can step between that ball and a defender to win the ball? Can defenders step between the ball and an attacker to win balls?What about GKs can they move with attackers, or does everyone need to take a position and stand still?
     
  23. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    Probably.* No player has the right to impede the progress of an opponent. There is no reason for the attacker to be doing this other than to impede the GKs movement. (Again, it cannot be a foul until the ball is in play.)

    _________
    *I say probably instead of just yes as it depends on the details. If the movement by the attacker does not impede the GK's attempts/ability to move, but is a step or two away just hoping to be close for a GK bobble, that would not be impeding. But in the real world, the CK "shadow" is almost always trying to (and succeeding in) impeding the GK's movement.
     
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  24. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    I utterly cannot fathom where you drew that from what I wrote. I said nothing about a bubble. And what you quoted said nothing about a GK being different from any other player. And there was nothing raised in this discussion about competing for the ball. This has all been about the player who is simply trying to get in the GK's way--that is an impeding foul if it happens when the ball is in play. (And it isn't something we see in "real" soccer because players know better and play to the ball--it is something we see in low levels when a player or coach thinks he has come up with a new creative strategy.)

    Of course
    the attacker and any player can move to the ball to attempt to win it. What they can't do is move to impede the movement of another player. As @ArgylleRef said, when the player looks at the GK so he can to move to get in the keeper's way, that is going to be an impeding foul. It really isn't hard to tell the difference.

    I have never in my life seen a GK impede an opponent on a CK--they are too focused on getting the ball out of the air as they have that advantage over all the other players..
     
    dadman repped this.
  25. Geko

    Geko Member

    Sacremento Geckos
    United States
    May 25, 2016
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You must have a very emotional story to go with what you think about goalkeepers, penalty area, and impeding/obstructing, cause that's not at all what social lurker said or insinuated.
     
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