"One Nation, under God."

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by verybdog, Oct 14, 2003.

  1. John Galt

    John Galt Member

    Aug 30, 2001
    Atlanta
    We'll see.

    Moving from the legal to the political, I think Democrats have got to be afraid of a split court, or anything other than a decisive affirmation of the current pledge. This is not like the flag burning case, where the very core of free speech is at issue, this is a case that most of America will see as silly at best. Taking a hard line stance against the expression of something this benign will not play well as an election issue.
     
  2. argentine soccer fan

    Staff Member

    Jan 18, 2001
    San Francisco Bay Area
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Following is the politically correct dissection of the Pledge of Allegiance:

    I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

    One nation under God: Out! It promotes religion.

    With liberty and Justice for all: Out! It is a lie, since minorities and the undocumented are disenfranchised and do not get liberty and justice.

    To the Flag of the United States of America: Out! The flag is a symbol of American imperialism and warmongering and unjustice.

    And to the Republic for which it stands: Out! We are ashamed of our president and of what our Republic now stands for.

    Indivisible: Out! it is unfair to worthy minority groups like MECHA and others who support giving up part of the country.

    I pledge allegiance: To what? There is nothing left.

    Lets just have a moment of silence to meditate on our liberal values.
     
  3. Demosthenes

    Demosthenes Member+

    May 12, 2003
    Berkeley, CA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    ASF's little attempt at humor reminds me of an incident from my past. In high school, I would never rise to say the Pledge in the morning, usually because I was asleep. This really pissed off my crusty Korean War veteran geometry teacher, who insisted that everybody stand up "out of respect," even if they refused to recite the words. He added that when he was in school, anybody who refused to recite the Pledge had to write a five-page essay on why they hate America. So I wrote the essay. I never handed it in to him, lacking the courage of my convictions, but I did circulate it around the class, for my peers' entertainment.

    *Note (lest Karl or anyone get his panties in a wad): the essay wasn't really about how I hate America. It was about how stupid the Pledge is.
    I've always disliked the Pledge and the way kids are forced/trained to recite it like automatons. As a child, I never thought the "under God" part applied to me or my God. It doesn't have to say so explicity; you just know whose God they're talking about. But even without "under God," the Pledge is stupid and annoying. End of anecdote.
     
  4. RichardL

    RichardL BigSoccer Supporter

    May 2, 2001
    Berkshire
    Club:
    Reading FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    couldn't you just scrap the pledge completely? What purpose does it serve?

    People who believe it are going to believe it anyway even if they don't have to recite it. Anyone who doesn't believe it isn't going to come around just because they are forced to say it.
     
  5. mannyfreshstunna

    mannyfreshstunna New Member

    Feb 7, 2003
    Naperville, no less
    Why can't you accept the fact that the majority of kids have a sense that the pledge is important? I know i said it becuase i had a sense of what it ment.

    Your automoton tangent is pure rubbish. You don't give children any credit for being able to think on their own. After all, your great mind was able to break the chains of nationalism wasn't it? Perhaps you think but won't say that anyone who wishes to say the pledge is a mindless drone, while you are the enlightened thinker;the heroic intellectual.
     
  6. argentine soccer fan

    Staff Member

    Jan 18, 2001
    San Francisco Bay Area
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    If you think the pledge of allegiance is stupid and annoying, you are lucky you did not grow up in Argentina. At my school this is what we had to recite at school every morning, as we watched our flag get raised, sometimes in below zero weather. (translation is mine, and may not be perfect)

    This was our civic pledge:

    My country
    founded by heroes and thinkers
    to secure the benefits of liberty
    for us and for all the good people of the world
    Who wish to live under the shadow of your flag
    Glorious in the past and in the present
    I, your son, salute you today
    Declare my faith in your destiny
    And promise to keep throughout my life
    the obligations of all good citizens
    To be honest
    To be loyal
    To be strong
    To be educated
    To be a hard worker
    To obey your laws
    And to fight for them to always be
    The security of your glory
    And the garantee for all the families
    who live in your land.


    Nothing about God, as you all can see. But I bet you wouldn't want to swap.
     
  7. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "One Nation, under God."

    I sort of agree with this, and sort of don't.

    As a Christian parent trying to raise Christian children, I think that the exposure my children get to a generic, meaningless "God" undermines my efforts. I agree that it's not a big deal, but since I want my children to believe in the God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit, this ain't helping.

    "Daddy, doesn't Jesus care about the United States too?" I'd rather not have that discussion.
     
  8. John Galt

    John Galt Member

    Aug 30, 2001
    Atlanta
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "One Nation, under God."

    This point seems disingenuous. Your premise is all references to religion should be limited to an orthodox form of Christianity, otherwise you would be unable to inculcate true Christian values. That's like saying Sportscenter highlights don't interest people in watching sports.

    Also, wouldn't your hypothetical question be asked even more curiously if "God" were removed from all current government references?
     
  9. John Galt

    John Galt Member

    Aug 30, 2001
    Atlanta
    Let's not forget that one of the purposes of public schools is to inculcate values. If you really want to put yourself out on a limb, try and argue otherwise. As schools must promote some set of values to future citizens of the State, I see no harm in promoting allegiance to the United States of America.
     
  10. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "One Nation, under God."

    No, it's like saying Sportscenter highlights of fans cheering doesn't make soccer fans want to stay tuned.

    No. Because the way I read the Bible, Jesus wants us to render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and render unto God what is God's.

    Maybe it has to do with the genesis of my denomination (Lutheran), but I was never raised to intermingle faith and nation.
     
  11. house18

    house18 Member

    Jun 23, 2003
    St. Louis, MO
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "One Nation, under God."

    Personally I tought it was pretty cool reciting the Pledge in grade school (pride in cold war USA), but if the God part is a problem then let's sing the anthem before school. They do it before games! I have one problem with what you are saying here, what about other "supreme beings" who are not known by the name "God?"
     
  12. GringoTex

    GringoTex Member

    Aug 22, 2001
    1301 miles de Texas
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    I don't think anyone objects to schools promoting allegiance to America- I just object to the idea that it can be done so through rote recitation.
     
  13. mannyfreshstunna

    mannyfreshstunna New Member

    Feb 7, 2003
    Naperville, no less
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "One Nation, under God."

    Dave, As a Catholic, it's kind of hard for me to debate this. I understand what you're saying, but a lot of people are making a big stink about this, as well as other perceived attempts to establish religion (Alabama.)

    I'm not sure if the phrase belongs there; i'd sure like to keep it.


    I do know that I am concerned about the mind set of the country. Anytime anything anywhere draws the slightest parallel to religion, people cry foul. I don't think that was what the Fathers intended. They wanted to protect everyone's right to religion, or lack there of. But they certainly did not want a thought police going around and dismantling any vestiges of religion. They simply didn't want to force one god on the nation. They left that to be a decision made by the individual. But i do not believe for a minute that they wanted to restrict others rights in the name of the Separation of Church and State crusade.
     
  14. Demosthenes

    Demosthenes Member+

    May 12, 2003
    Berkeley, CA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Oh, relax. Perhaps you weren't paying attention as you read my story, or perhaps the hints in there were too subtle for you. I was trying to imply that my protest was more a result of teenage smartass-ness than enlightened thinking.

    I never commented on what the pledge means to other people. Just that I thought it was stupid.

    But now that you mention it, I completely disagree with you regarding what proportion of kids give even the briefest thought to what the pledge means or why they say it. But that's just my impression, it's certainly not based on polling or research.

    Please note that I never called fans of the pledge mindless drones. I just think children sound like automatons when they recite it - and if you listen them, you can't deny it. Perhaps they are actually thinking very hard about alleigance to America and what a wonderful nation we live in, as they speak the words. However, the forced manner in which the words are usually recited smacks of robotics.

    At my elementary school, we used to recite the pledge every morning followed immediately by Hatikvah, the Israeli national anthem. None of us were fluent enough in Hebrew to begin to understand the words of Hatikvah; we learned it phonetically. At assemblies and graduations and other events, when the pledge was recited, at least half the kids would immediately launch into Hatikvah before they realized they weren't supposed to. They assumed the recitation and song were connected, parts of the same thing. Which suggests, to me, that they weren't thinking any more about what the pledge meant than they were about the nonsense syllables in the song.
     
  15. monop_poly

    monop_poly Member

    May 17, 2002
    Chicago
    I could care less whether "under God" is in the pledge or not. If pushed, I guess I would like to see it taken out just to take this silly issue off the table.

    But there is no way that the current court will leave the 9th Circuit decision standing. If it wanted to do that, it would have refused the case and avoided this hot potato.

    No. The pledge is definitely staying as is. The only question is whether this court will actively set new and more restricted parameters in what is or is not an "establishment of religion." My gut says "no" and that this court will not move substantially off of the current tests under Lemmon.
     
  16. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "One Nation, under God."

    manny, here's something to contemplate.

    Life was very different in 1787.

    Really.

    No public schools, which now provide the captive audience for the pledge, and once provided the captive audience for prayers. I think that covers the vast majority of these controversies.

    There was no radio or TV. IOW, there were no communications media that, because they're transmitted over airwaves, can't be wholly private. And that covers almost all of the rest.
     
  17. Dan Loney

    Dan Loney BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 10, 2000
    Cincilluminati
    Club:
    Los Angeles Sol
    Nat'l Team:
    Philippines
    May I express my unbridled contempt for those whose religious faith is so astoundingly weak, that they feel it threatened if children across the nation don't say "under God" once in a day in a bored monotone?

    Thank you.

    I have nothing against religious people, as long as they keep their so-called lifestyle private and don't carry on in public places where kids might see them.

    Yes, I know Michael Newdow is a tool. Doesn't mean he's not right.
     
  18. mannyfreshstunna

    mannyfreshstunna New Member

    Feb 7, 2003
    Naperville, no less
    Wow. Wrong again Loney. I can be as Catholicious as i want for as long as i want in front of whoever i want. That freedom is guaranteed to me. I don't have to shut my religion up in a cupboard so your impressionable children won't be suckered into the whole God thing.
     
  19. Dan Loney

    Dan Loney BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 10, 2000
    Cincilluminati
    Club:
    Los Angeles Sol
    Nat'l Team:
    Philippines
    Fine, I'm all for tolerance, but I don't see why you people feel the need to flaunt it all the time with your parades and funny costumes. It's just not natural.
     
  20. mannyfreshstunna

    mannyfreshstunna New Member

    Feb 7, 2003
    Naperville, no less
    Cause we know how to make any hat look cool.
     
  21. John Galt

    John Galt Member

    Aug 30, 2001
    Atlanta
    Not much effort to flip to the other side of the coin:
     
  22. mannyfreshstunna

    mannyfreshstunna New Member

    Feb 7, 2003
    Naperville, no less
    Touche'
     
  23. Dan Loney

    Dan Loney BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 10, 2000
    Cincilluminati
    Club:
    Los Angeles Sol
    Nat'l Team:
    Philippines
    Find and Replace will only get you so far in life.

    A pledge without "under God" is not atheistic, any more than a national anthem or a Constitution or a menu or a pair of soccer shorts that doesn't mention God is atheistic.

    It's fairly worrying that recommending the absence of religion can be seen as an attack on religion. There are plenty of religious people who aren't so comfy with the pledge as is...Buddhists, the Orthodox who spell the guy's name "G-d", agnostics, and other lower forms of scum - oops, er, I mean, American citizens.

    When the pledge includes the phrase "one nation, religion sucks," then you might have a point.
     
  24. Daksims

    Daksims New Member

    Jun 27, 2001
    Colorado
    All for tolerance, my big fat hairy rump. Liberals can't tolerate guns, unborn babies, free speech, religion, family values, etc, etc, etc. The only tolerance liberals have is for things that fit in to their narrow skewed world view.

    Being PC is speaking exactly how liberals want you to talk when they want you to talk. Being PC is being white and not being able to express your opinion unless it is a liberal opinion. How is this tolerant?
     
  25. Dan Loney

    Dan Loney BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 10, 2000
    Cincilluminati
    Club:
    Los Angeles Sol
    Nat'l Team:
    Philippines
    I love it when they jump in the boat.
     

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