One in the hole....discussing Arsenal tactics and formation possibilities...

I'm a fan of talking tactics, and you're right to point our that a 4-4-2 isn't always exactly what its name implies. You're spot on about the "triangle" play that led to a lot of our success – namely between Rosicky, Hleb and Fabregas.

Really my dream is for Arsenal to play the 'totalvoetbal' 4-3-3, but I know we don't have the players for it right now, and also that Wenger will never use it anyway... but I like the 4-2-3-1. Ajax used it at certain points during last season and was able to get some results with it.

For us, the bottom line is that with Cesc out, we're probably going to see some experimentation. I don't think it's unrealistic to see us playing with a formation like this, even if it's not a 'formal' differentiation from the 4-5-1. When are we going to get Walcott back? Based off of the 4-2-3-1 you wrote, I'd rather see:

----------------- Adebayor
van Persie ------ Nasri ----- Walcott
----------- Denilson ----- Song
Clichy ---- Gallas ---- Djourou --- Sagna

But if Walcott's not back for a bit yet, then maybe:
Nasri - Diaby - van Persie

Someone posted in one of the other threads about expecting Arsenal to play 'safe' football for the next month or so, and I wouldn't be surprised if that's the case. The goal would be to ensure we get some points from these upcoming fixtures and get Walcott, Fabregas and Eduardo, Eboue and Nasri all healthy for the near future.

 

I think I will always favor a formation with two dedicated strikers... But given the talent available (and my desire to never see Bendtner play again), I can't see why it would hurt to have Ade alone to combine with two wing forwards and a midfielder behind him.

There are other questions, like the toughness of the wingforwards to get back and contribute defensively. Or the ability of RVP to play that position in our team at this level. I think that with the wrong people, this formation would be a catasrophe because it wouldn't really accomplish either of its goals (advantages in the attack and midfield simultaneously through the flexibility of the players).

I'll give you credit for a long, thought out post that was mostly coherent... I didn't know you had it in you.

 

Well, I'd rather you and I man the wings than see them two play there again, so that doesn't say much.

I am a bit confused though. Some of your post seems to project this as the new "it" formation and would raise some questions on whether we should build our team and project it forward based on this. Other parts of your original post seem to simply analyze it as a stopgap while Cesc is hurt. Which one is it exactly?

 

Yeah, I really hope we don't have to see that much. I'd be more inclined to see Eboue get a run of games at RM. At least Eboue can run behind the defender and put in crosses.

And I also agree... mostly a stop-gap measure, but who knows... could be something for the future.

 

I'm a big fan of the 4-2-3-1 and think it could really fit for Arsenal. I would just say that we would need to play it while still maintaining the "style" (for lack of a better word) that we do a 4-4-2 or a 4-4-1-1. By that I mean would couldn't play it the way liversh*t do...they use it to clog up the middle then hit teams on a counter attack. I think if Arsenal use it correctly we could completely dominate the midfield and cut down on our problems in defense.

IMHO, our strongest lineup would be something like (everyone on the roster...even sicknotes):

------------Adebayor-----------
Rosicky------Nasri-----------RvP
-------Cesc--------Song-------
Clichy--Djourou---Gallas---Sagna

I would put Cesc as part of the midfield 2 b/c I think he's at his best when he's in a place to control the flow of the game and when our attack flows through him to start. Nasri is more of a natural #10 ("in the hole") player than Cesc.

This is also where what I said about not trying to use it the way the scousers do. If Cesc is put in the midfield 2 he has to be given a more fluid role where he can go forward and come back.

For me the best example of a 4-2-3-1 worked to perfection is 07-08 Roma on peak form, mainly the first few months of last season (with Totti).

I thought they were at their best when they set up the midfield/forward like this (I might have the Attacking Mids wrong but the important line is the midfield 2):
---------------Totti--------------
Mancini-------Perrotta-----Taddei
--------De Rossi-----Aquilani-----

In that formation Aquilani pushed up into the attack to add the extra man but also came back to defend and control possession. So, when Roma attacked quite often it would become a 2-1-3-4 with the forward and 3 Attacking mids almost becoming a rotating front line. Then with Aquilani behind to support, w/ the fullbacks pushed up on either side of him to provide width and crossing. De Rossi behind him to break up counters and of course the CB's behind him.

In my opinion that is something Arsenal could easily pull off. Adebayor is not strictly a central striker, he moves out the the wings quite often and that would open up space for Nasri/Rosicky/RvP to run through. Also, this more fluid 4-2-3-1 (as opposed to the rigid defensive 4-2-3-1 liverpool playe) would allow Cesc to dictate play deeper then join in the attack.

My three main concerns about Arsenal playing a 4-2-3-1 come with RvP, a healthy eduardo and the still lingering need for a solid CM partner for Cesc. IMO, RvP is at his best when he's played through the middle as a striker and I don't think we'll get the best out of him on either wing. One solution to that is put him in the middle of the attacking mids but then you've basically gone to a half a**ed 4-4-2 b/c of the way RvP plays. Eduardo when fit can play on the left but is clearly at his best in the middle as a striker. Also, I think a 4-2-3-1 played with Cesc partnering Song or Denilson as the midfield two is the equivalent of papering over a hole in the wall, painting over it and hoping no one notices. It would cover up the weakness but a solid team could still exploit that weakness if it's not addressed.

It's an interesting tactical question b/c I think that if Cesc had the right type of partner a midfield 4 (in a 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1) could do just as well as a midfield 5 in a 4-2-3-1.

IMHO, the ideal solution would be having the flexibility to play both...4-2-3-1 in Europe (although using 4-4-2 in easier games or games when we need to score) and tough away games. Then a 4-4-2 at home and easier away games.

Good idea for a thread and good post to kick off the discussion BigMan

 

that article is brilliant, I will read it later

 

This is exactly how we should play in the absence of Fabregas. More specifically, without Ade for the Villa match, and Theo as well, we should make the amendments I've suggested. The key in all of this is Nasri playing centrally as the major creative influence. His talent is COMPLETELY wasted on the wings with no creative influence to get him involved. He needs to play centrally. I'm confident that a combination of Denilson and Song can do the business in terms of solidifying the middle, as both of htem have come on in recent matches. I'm reluctant to put Diaby in the side, and alternatively you could put RvP left and put Eboue on the right. But I think we'd lose something from RvP on the left, so I'd rather play Diaby. But for the situation we are in now, playing a typical 442 with Denilson and Song in the middle and Nasri and Eboue/Diaby on the wings will get us nowhere at all. It makes us weak going forward.

As far as playing 'safe' football is concerned, I'm staunchly opposed to that. If we defended well as a team, I'd consider it. But we don't and individually are prone to mental lapses defensively. So basically inviting more pressure on us at that end of the field is a huge no-no. Our attack should be the first line of defense, so we need to play a side that maximises our ball retention. The squad we all know Wenger will probably field is terrible at it, so we need to change it up. Play our players to their strengths. Good thread idea thebigman, no doubt a lot of good discussion will emerge from this.

 

iufan, for your line up, id flop Walcott and van Persie around... just so they can cut in and take shots from the flanks...

 

Unfortunately, we all know that this is what will take the field

GK
Back 4
Eboue - Song - Denilson - Nasri
- Rvp - Ade -

edit - forgot Nasri was back, and Bendtner for Ade when suspended.

 

Seems like lots of people are fans of the 4-2-3-1 idea. I just doubt we'll actually see it employed.

And yeah, I know that van Persie is great on the right – but he's a pretty unique player. I'm not sure Walcott could cope on the left that easily.

 

i really like the 4-2-3-1, but i don't know why everyone likes rvp playing out wide. i know he plays right wing for holland, but they play more of an attack minded 4-3-3 where he has less defensive responsibilities. last year, when we played 4 5 1 with rvp out on the left, he was out of the game. his talents are wasted because he has too much defensive responsibilities, and i don't think he has the pace/stamina to go up and down the wing for 90 minutes playing both sides of the ball. the 2 holding midfielders would help out, but i think we are left too exposed.

i like think a 4-1-3-1-1 would work well with our current injuries

-------------almunia--------------

sagna---gallas---djourou---clichy

---------------song---------------

eboue---------denilson----------nasri

----------------rvp/diaby--------------

------------bendtner/rvp--------------

i think this line-up gives us a solid defensive presence, but allows for easy/quick changing of formation. if we want to play a little conservative, we play diaby in the hole, off of bendtner, rvp, or ade (after suspension). this gives us an extra presence in the midfield. at the same time, diaby can switch with nasri during points of the game if we are lacking a "final ball". for a more attacking mindset, we can play rvp off bendtner, adebayor. also, if we need to press more, we can push into a 4-3-3 with rvp as rwf, ade as cf, and nasri can push up to a lwf, and play a triangle in the midfield. we can also bring in diaby off the bench for eboue (if we are down) or rvp (if we are winning)

song sitting in front of the defensive gives us the coverage we need. denilson would play a little deeper then the two outside players and would try and control the pace. i think this formation gives room for our wide players to get to the byline and cross (if ade/bendtner are up top) or cut in, and create space for the full backs to move up.

one thing i have noticed a lot this season, is that our fullbacks haven't been able to press up as much as last season, or like they usually do. i dont know if this is because we can't keep possession, and thus they can't push up, or if their lack of ambition/too much worry about defense, makes them sit back more, meaning we have less passing options in the opponents half, and thus giving away possession easier when teams press.

just my thoughts, please criticize, as i am not a tactician.

 

Theo has played pretty well out left when he got the run out... and like bigman said, they can both push forward to support Bayo... it works better with them being on their the side of their weak foot because they can both cut in with their stronger foot to shoot

I would love to see a 4-2-3-1 also, but im with you in doubting Wenger would go with it... for the time being tho, it could be a strong formation...

 

I think A.W. features a strong squad with possible Wilshere or Ramsey in the mix and maybe RVP and Bendtner up front. Even possibly Vela in as a sub. Am I correct in thinking that Fabianski aka Fab2 has been promised the net?

 

good article on the importance of the fullback

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2009/mar/25/the-question-full-backs-football

 

Wow, I actually disagree completely. Having a good fulback is more a luxury than a necessity, more so than any other part of the pitch. That's why a lot of average mids and forwards get converted to outside back.

 

totally agree.

fullback is totally overrated.
when chelsea signed ferreira/bosingwa and del horno/cole, that was comical.

 

I played right full back..

Ya know what, you big old frickin Brummie you....
I've given you a few snide 'North of Newport Pagnell' comments over the
last couple of years....but your comprehension of tactics, and this thread in particular,
are to be complimented.

I suck at tactical strategy...mainly because I care more for the game,
in the moment, than the coulda woulda shoulda.

However...just wanted to say, on record...that I actually read a lot
of your posts now.

Your grammer still sucks dog dicks....but I gotta tell ya mate....
there's a lot of your posts that I ACTUALLY enjoy reading these days.