http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-572322,00.html THE POPE launched an eleventh-hour crusade yesterday to avert a war against Iraq, for which he believes there is no justification. The ageing pontiff rebuffed attempts by the Bush Administration to persuade him that impending military action against Baghdad amounted to a Christian “just war”. ------------------------------------------ Under the principles of “just war”, as formulated by St Augustine of Hippo and later by St Thomas Aquinas, war can be waged only as a last resort and by a “legitimate authority”. It must be fought with “right intentions”, for example in self-defence or to redress a wrong, and with a reasonable chance of success to avoid excessive death and injury. The theory of just war also holds that civilian casualties must be avoided, that the means used must be proportionate and that the ultimate goal should be to establish a peace “preferable to what would have prevailed if the war had not been fought”.
Too bad we just can't kill them because they are unholy muslim swine. Its funny that the Pope launched into an 11th hour Crusade.
I can't believe this!! Look, I am not a Catholic (actually a lapsed Lutheran), support a woman's right to choose, and find much of the trappings of organiized religion pretty silly. But John Paul will go down as one of the towering figures of the late 20th century, seeing as how he was one of the most powerful and effective anti-totalitarian figures around. Pretty contemptible dissing him.
The man is the head of a religion that has brought more pain and suffering to this world than will likely be seen in this particular conflict. If calling him- and his religion - on that makes me contemptible...so be it.
And he has moved the Catholic Church away from that. I disagree with the Pope on this issue, but John Paul II will go down in history as a great man. Alex
The problem is, you guys expect complete purity in an institution with, I dunno, some many millions of HUMAM members? and thousands upon thousands of HUMAN priests? Look, the Catholic Church has its awful warts. But you CANNOT disupute that John Paul was ABSOLUTELY instrumental is bringing down COMMUNIST totalitarianism in our lifetime. For that ALONE, he should be accorded tremendous respect. But, no, you'd rather flippantly diss this guy who has done more with his little finger than any of you will do in 10 of your pathetic lifetimes. "Contemptible" doesn't begin to describe it.
Hitler did a lot of great stuff when it came to science and industry. His little problem of being completely insane overshadows all of that though.
Sounds like a descriotion of Reagan to me, who isn't exactly widely respected on these boards either.
You know. You're right. Both of their crusades are responsible for killing thousands of Central Americans.
The human rights progress that has been made in Central America over the past 40 years is due for the main part to the Catholic Church.
I wasn't refuting what you said. I just wanted to add my two cents along with all the Catholic bashing.
True but a bit misleading since before this period the Church in C. and S. America supported the government regardless of what they did to their citizens. It was a force for the status quo. I am glad that they've switched sides but you can't ignore their complicity in many human rights abuses.
Yes, but John XXIII is the man who deserves (and gets) credit for that and for most other "advances" the Catholic Church has made in this century. JP II has been merely a long-lived tool compared to ole 23. Actually, the way I remember it from stuff I read years ago is that JP II's early years in power were mostly spent trying to bring the church back into the Dark Ages from whence John XXIII had led them. This is in regards to many more issues than the sex scandal, including the status of women in the church, birth control, the hierarchical structure of the church leaders, and so on.
I remember something like this, too. I did a brief search for the article but gave it up as a lost cause. [This next bit doesn't necessarily speak to whether he's a hero or villain, but the political maneuvering it suggests is interesting:] I also remember (back in the 80's, around the time of the attempted assassination) an analyst on NPR commenting on J2-P2' reassertion of highly centralized control from the Vatican and all the dismay and resentment of same among the rank and file. This guy said the all the globe hopping was an attempt to circumvent the resistance among the priesthood via establishing his own popularity and in so doing he was preparing to fight against the growing consensus among some priests for liberalization (marriage for priests, priesthood for women, esp.).
Setting aside Reagan for a second, you cannot possibly be suggesting that Pope John Paul II is responsible for the deaths of thousands of Central Americans. Alex
Yeah because we all know the iron support JP2 gave to liberation theology... Whatever good was done by individual cardinals, bishops, priests and nuns south of the Rio Grande was done in spite of JP2, not because of him.
I posted before I read your acknowledgement about Lib Theology. DocJones24 is right about JP2 vis-a-vis Johannes23. The Catholic Church better hope for a massive influx of Spanish and Polish speaking immigrants to the USA because between JP2 and the abuse scandals, they've been working damn hard at driving native Catholics here away. It's not like anyone who was born here actually listens to what the Pope says about anything anymore as it is.