So I'm just an above average SOB and member of The River End: I've memorized all of our regular songs and most of the ones we haven't done yet. I sing loudly, proudly, and keep things from getting too quite in my section. I obey the Code of Conduct and volunteer at the tailgates when they ask for a few hands to pick up trash. That's about it, I just don't have time to anything more, nor am I properly acquainted with the Elders, so my apologies in advanced if in my ignorance I've handled this wrong but this is the only place I know of for the commoners of The River End to raise some issues. So let me get down to business: This week's 'Nack had a song to learn for the Seattle game: Take a hike, take a hike Put a shotgun in your mouth and shoot it In the rain, like Cobain Go on blow out your brain Shoot them out Scream and shout So, in case you missed it, the song is explicitly telling the Seattle fans to go commit suicide. As someone who has had a few close experiences with suicide I find this extremely offensive and this is what this rant is all about. The SOB Code of Conduct, in my opinion, boils down to essentially: 1) Support the team. 2) Don't say offensive off-color things. 3) Don't be violent. 4) Don't throw things. Correct me if I'm wrong or forgot something. Because of the Code of Conduct in addition to the Front Office's ambiguous (or at least not as explicitly communicated) corresponding policy on the SOBs/TRE the following things have happened: 1) People have gotten thrown out for violating the code of conduct. I've seen people in and around my section get thrown out for throwing bottles on the field, and just this past week, for saying a mild racist remark to an NY player. 2) The "You suck asshole!" chant/taunt has had the kibosh put on it because the FO wants to promote a "family-friendly atmosphere" and this organized swearing of TRE was too much. To be honest, I have no problem with either of those things. I personally like YSA, I don't know any other group that does it as loud as us but if the FO doesn't want us to curse that loudly because its offensive, that's fine. However, its the inconsistency with the Elders and the FO on what is "offensive" that bothers me. Like I said, I find the above 'go kill yourself' chant extremely offensive. More so than saying "you suck asshole" on every goal kick, and I bet the soccer moms and dads the "family friendly" atmosphere caters to would agree with me. Additionally last season when we we're trying to find a replacement for "YSA" one of the fixes was "your wife, my kids" and, if memory serves me, was proposed by an SOB Elder. Again, I think the soccer moms and dads would find this offensive. The point I want to conclude with is we're trying to be a strong, loud, tireless, and minimally offensive supporters group, can we reanalyze our song catalog and policies so as to not be offensive to fellow fans and SOBs in addition to the opposition's support? Can we be more consistent and concrete?
I don't agree with all of your points but I do think you raise valid ones. Going around wondering whats going to offend who will drive you crazy and it's a bad way to try and run a supporters section. But there are some things that do cross over the uncomfortable line. I agree with what you say about the song in the nack. It's an email that went out to thousands of people and something like suicide is very close to many people. Trust me, I'm the first to call the opposing team a see you next tuesday, as those around me know, but this chants a wee bit over the edge. Its right up there with everyone singing "red bull gives you cancer" last year on cancer awareness night. But as a whole you need to make exceptions to what you normally find somewhat offensive if youre going to be in TRE. Its the culture of the sports supporters, its what makes it unique and fun. But we do draw a line when it comes to things like racism and homophobic comments. But a song about some guy that took his own life and singing about their fans shooting themselves in the face crosses that line for me in my own opinion. Its one thing for a group of individuals coming up with it and starting it off, but for the organization as a whole to put it out there as our "song" this week is like us telling NYRB supporters to jump off a bridge like that gay rutgers college kid did this past year...how would that have gone over?
Just so everyone is aware, these are the lyrics to the song Sounders fans sing, which is being parodied: Take 'em all, take 'em all Put 'em up against a wall and shoot 'em Short and tall, watch 'em fall Come on boys take 'em all Additionally, it was sung to the ECS when we were with them in multiple drinking establishments last year in Seattle; they enjoyed it. Please continue.
yeah, and we should definitely burn all the red bulls and united fans in a bonfire. redbull really causes cancer. mondragons dick is 12 inches, the refs a$s is up for rent, and hes a bastard....you getting my point. i understand your offended by this, and im sure other people will agree with me on this.
Yea and it's a song I love actually, being into the whole 70s/80s punk thing. I guess I'm kind of in the middle here...my initial reaction is usually never what I end up feeling anyway. I just didn't think it was something to put in the nack
I personally don't have anything wrong with the chant. I know it's a soccer chant and isn't supposed to be taken literally by any means. We don't want any of them to kill themselves, we are just taking a punch at where they are from. Having said that, My GF's cousin shot himself in the head last year. She found out on a match day and obviously we didn't go to that game and missed another one for the funeral. She isn't going to this sat's game because of work so I have no problems singing it. But if she was going to this game and heard us singing this song I can guarentee she would break down and start crying and might lapse back into a deppresive state. Once again, I understand that it is just a silly football chant and I personally have nothing agaisnt it. I also understand how it can, even in jest, hurt someone else.
I don't see anything in the CoC about not saying offensive or off-color things. Here it is: 1. DON’T BE A RACIST We say some pretty uncomplimentary things about the other team and occasionally the referee. (Okay, usually the referee.) What we don’t do is base those comments on their skin color, their last name or the country they (or their parents or grandparents) were born in. Sons of Ben have a zero tolerance policy for racist chants, songs, or taunts. Start one and you’re out. 2. DON’T BE A THUG Our goal is to intimidate the opposition, drown out their fans, and make Chester Stadium a miserable place to visit. But we will do it without throwing punches, or anything else, at players, referees, fans, or stadium staff. Starting a fight with opposing supporters or trying to physically injure a player or referee is off limits. 3. DON’T BE AN IDIOT Use your common sense. Sons of Ben are in the stadium to support the Union. If you’re here to support the team, you’re welcome in the Sons of Ben. If you’re here to make trouble for yourself or for the fans around you, you aren’t welcome. Disruptive, dangerous, or obnoxious behavior towards your fellow fans is not acceptable. 4. DO RESPECT THE TEAM The Sons of Ben do all we can to make sure our section, home or away, is the most exciting place to watch a game and the most intimidating thing the other team has ever seen. To ensure that we can keep doing so for many years to come, please follow stadium policies regarding prohibited items, obey local laws, know your limits with alcohol, and don’t do anything to get yourself or the SoBs kicked out of the stadium. If you violate this simple Code of Conduct, the Sons of Ben can and will revoke your membership without a refund, meaning you will no longer be permitted into the supporters’ section. Serious offenses, and all racist incidents, will also be reported to the team and may get you banned from the stadium entirely.
I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who thinks this a little over the line and that we need to be a tad more aware of what we're singing and when. I do understand that by no means are our songs to be taken literally, but I'm fairly certain some bully somewhere has said that to some kid who has killed himself. I'm glad the Seattle fans took it in stride and were classy enough fans to recognize they were being parodied. That still doesn't justify singing this. I'm sorry I didn't actually look up the Code of Conduct, but I did say "in my opinion." Regardless, the Front Office has turned the "Don't be a racist" into "don't be offensive." EX: We've seriously toned back the swearing from the start of last season, save for the occasional bullshit/asshole chant directed at the referee, by request of the FO, because it was coming over the telecast and they were receiving complaints. My "goal" is that I don't want this being sung at all, I'm not trying to cause trouble for the sake of causing trouble. I find this song offensive and I don't want it sung, that's it. However, I will concede that neither I nor the Elders and Capos have the power to control what goes on outside of TRE. My support for this stance is that the FO and Elders have promoted a policy limiting what can occur in TRE as to not be offensive, violent, or troublesome. While I feel this policy has been irregularly enforced, and that I'm confused by this, I feel that it is more offensive then some of the other chants that have come under scrutiny and thus shouldn't be sung.
Wrong. It had nothing to do with the FO wanting to promote a "family-friendly" environment. It had everything to do with this one statement being repeated over and over again by 2,000 people at once and the way both in the stadium and on broadcasts. The FO understands what the RE represents and the environment we create whether it be through our chants, songs, antics, etc. They had one issue with one statement. They know we curse in some of our songs. They've never asked us to cut it out completely. It was/is just about YSA. Regarding the "Suicide" song: there nothing wrong with it. Like others, I've had to deal with those situations in my family as well so this isn't me belittling the perceived issue. But, listen to lyrics of songs on the radio and tell me you turn the channel every time you hear something "offensive". I normally try to be diplomatic about stuff like this but personally, I'm tired of hearing/reading it. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, that's never in doubt. But honestly, if you don't like it, MOVE out of the River End and enjoy your time elsewhere. Again, Wrong. The only thing you've heard from the Elders is that we don't like YSA either and would like to change it. But, that's for the members of the River End to decide. Have you heard us say "Yankee Doodle" must go? No. Is there anything else that we said you can't do? In other words, stop making blind statements that have no facts to back it up and stop acting as if we're trying to sanitize the environment. It's the furthest thing from the truth.
Well I stand corrected. However, I think this misunderstanding is part of the issue. I remember that an official email that went out, and while I don't remember the actual words, the message I received was that the FO didn't like that YSA was coming over the broadcasts and didn't like the way YSA represented the club and supporters, and didn't like it because they wanted people other then the SOBs to feel welcome at the stadium, i.e. be family friendly. Hopefully I didn't shove my foot too far in my mouth. My point with that is that I'm confused (outside of what directly is stated in the Code of Conduct) about where the line is we can't cross. The Code of Conduct draws this explicitly but the Front Office, in my opinion, has been kind of vague. I feel that this song cross that line and I'm offended by, but if the FO, Elders, and half TRE are going to tell me I'm wrong and that it doesn't cross the line, then fine, I'm wrong, just make sure everyone knows where that line is. To respond to your other points, yes I do actually change the station when a song comes on that I find offensive or don't like. I hate Nickleback. No I don't feel as though you're trying to sanitize the environment, I never said that. I feel that the front office wanted some changes made and that this song goes against the precedent set by those changes, that is all.
There's no such thing as mildly racist. Something is either racist or it isn't; there's no gray area. I'm not crazy about the song, but I'm not for dropping it due to sensitivity issues. EVERYTHING can be perceived as offensive to someone: Example: - I know a person in New York who died of dehydration because he needed a drink but didn't have any cups. We should stop chanting this immediately.
if i said what i really wanted to say here i'd probably get carded from the mods. so i will just state... i highly disagree with the original post of this thread and the poster in my humble opinion obviously does not understand or get the sarcasm inherent in all soccer/football supporters groups in their chants. if we were as bad as the groups in italy or england we'd probably have songs about 9/11 directed towards the red bulls. WE ARE MAKING FUN OF NIRVANA AND FLANNEL. there is nothing wrong here. if you want a completely PC supporters group then I think the bridge crew was meant for you.
Right, if we called the dead guy out by name in the no cups chant than yes, your logic would be correct. I dont see any reason to not let people sing said song, I've sung worse in the RE. I guess I was just kinda caught off guard seeing it in the 'nack, which I know probably goes out to 5k or so people more or less. Just like my initial reaction to Bimbo, I'm already over it and see the sense of the other side and agree with you guys. I think Matt replied properly to the guys objections with how we conduct ourselves, etc. But I dont think telling a paying member of the group to just "go somewhere else" if he doesnt like it is very diplomatic though. Facts are : its going to happen, we apologize if it offends you, your objection is noted and we will take things like this into consideration in the future. The guy just wants his opinion heard, and while we may not all agree with it, it does hold some slight merit. Sometimes people just want someone to acknowledge that they understand some people are not happy with it. I think the guy realistically knows its happening either way.
I'll cut you some slack for the Nickleback hatred. "My support for this stance is that the FO and Elders have promoted a policy limiting what can occur in TRE as to not be offensive, violent, or troublesome." I read that as you saying we are trying to sanitize the environment. If that's not what you meant, apologies. The FO is very vague when it comes to the songs, etc. in the River End for a reason. They want us to create the atmosphere in our own, organic way. They know what it means for the game day experience but obviously if there's something they have an concern about they bring it up to us. We do our best to work with them and find common ground. YSA is/was one of those issue they really don't like but while we obviously have tried to quell it, it's up to the members to make the final decision to move on from it.
His name was Sixt Eenyears I sincerely hope you know I was being sarcastic and that the real failing here is my failure to detect the sarcasm in your sarcastic reply to my sarcastic comment.
To clarify then, what was said was that some player was "a dirty Mexican." The comment is racist, no doubts there, but not as offensive as say the n-word. And I understand your point about anything being offensive, but your example is rather weak. I'm saying that suicide is a touchy thing. We already prevent SOBs from commenting on a person's nationality, ethnicity, and sexual preference, all things that are close to a person. I feel that this is something that is also close to a person. I'd just like this issue addressed. I absolutely love going to games and standing in The River End. This is the only song I object to, and the ambiguity (now resolved) with whether or not we're allowed to curse was the only communication issue I had with the Elders. I just wanted to bring up these concerns and get things resolved.
I have so much to say and I have no idea in what order to present it all. Here's an attempt. 1) Our goal has never been, and never will be, to be non-offensive. We do plenty of things to offend people. The YSA issue has nothing to do with the fact that it is "offensive." If our goal was to not offend people we wouldn't have done, off the top of my head, "99 Bottles of Beer" for Peter Vermes as to not offend those who have been affected by alcoholism and/or drunk driving, "Red Bull Gives You Cancer" as to not offend those who have been affected by cancer, "Who's Your Father" as to not offend all the bastards, and "16 Years No Cups" as to not offend those who can't afford cups and must drink with their hands. Last week we unveiled a 900 ft² overhead of our logo having decapitated the mascot of the rival's supporters' club. We offend people. 2) I fully and deeply understand how it's a sensitive topic for some people. Anyone who follows me on Twitter and read last night's tweets understands that. It's things I don't want in public, but I felt alright opening up on my (protected) twitter, because the discussion came up last night on there. That being said, I co-wrote the song and I was the one that made the decision as well as the execution for it to be in the Almanack. I made very sure to make fun of them for singing the song before it was even introduced, and linked (to the second, no less) to the excerpt of the song that they sing. It was presented as an obvious parody. I fully and deeply understand how some people may not find suicide funny, and could get angry at someone for making jokes about it. I went through that stage myself. In writing, singing, and typing the song I still get taken back to that moment in my life. And a part of me still hurts. But the rest of me is laughing, because it's a damn good/funny song/parody. Learning to laugh at jokes about suicide again is a way to get over it; it's that fifth stage of grief, acceptance. If you're not at that stage yet, I hope you're working towards it. But attempting to impose your grieving on everyone else by censoring what we do is incredibly unfair to all the people around you. There's references to suicide everywhere: in music, on TV, in movies. Trying to shelter yourself from all of it is just repressing your feelings, which is going to lead to more anger and depression in totally unrelated places in your life. 3) The song is quite obviously not intended to be taken seriously, no more than the original song sung by those in the Brougham End is to be...they don't actually want their players to line the opposing team up against a wall and fire a pistol at them. I've met quite a few Seattle supporters; there's one or two I wouldn't wish too many bad things upon...maybe just ulcers or something. My apologies to those that suffer from digestive disorders. 4) So, in conclusion...if you didn't have a problem with the other songs I listed but have a problem with this one, look at yourself and see if you're trying to impose your feelings on other people based on events in your personal life. If you did have a problem with the other songs and just didn't speak up...we're probably not the organization for you. We're not family-friendly and we don't play with kiddy gloves. We'll probably offend everyone eventually. I absolutely understand where you're coming from...but I don't agree.