San Jose - Columbus Donovan - 5. He received a lot of good service, both from his teammates and (accidentally) from Columbus's defense. However, he wasn't sharp enough to finish a single one. To his credit, poor refereeing cost him one clear penalty. Martino - 5. Columbus was tremendous in the attack after he game into the game; however, I wouldn't say Martino had much to do with it. In fact, I was surprised by how often he played with his head down. Buddle - 9. He scored two goals while playing right mid, and his contributions didn't end there. Down the stretch, everything was flowing through him, and his distribution was oustanding. If there is one knock on his performance, a player his size should be stronger in the air. That said, this was an extremely promising performance.
Why do I get his feeling -- I'd call it "sickening", though this is just soccer -- that Edson Buddle may be the next great talent in the USA, but that he won't get a whiff of the Olympic roster? I didn't see this game, but every time I have seen him, he is a significant difference maker, and can do things -- like hold the ball and score, even when three guys are draped over him -- that SHOULD make him a lock.
If he *should* be a lock, then why wouldn't he make the team? (this isn't a rhetorical question) Are politics/personality involved or something?
No, I have no inside info or anything -- it's just that the forward position is crowded with guys like Quaranta, Casey, Johnson, and maybe Donovan that, well, Edson may just be left out in the cold. Meanwhile, the recent U23 tour was arguably a B+ team, and Edson was tapped for that, even though Columbus was fighting for their playoff lives. I dunno -- I just really like what this guy brings to the party, and I hope he gets the shot. He might, but if he gets left off, I won't be surprised.
Karl, I understand your pessimism, but I think Buddle will get a shot. He may not make the team, but it won't be because he hasn't gotten chances. I mean, of all the U23 forwards in MLS - including Donovan - he's scored the most goals. It's gonna be tough to leave this guy off the roster. That said, a talented forward is likely gonna watch the Olympics on television. It may end up being Buddle, though it could just as easily be Casey, Johnson or Quaranta. With Donovan factored into the mix, I just don't see all 5 of them making an 18-man roster. If the selection was was based on performance with his club to date, the odd man out would be Eddie Johnson, who hasn't done as much for his team as the others have with theirs. That's not to say that I don't like Johnson - I do - or that I don't think he can help the Olympians but he hasn't produced as much as Buddle, Casey, a healthy Quaranta and of course, Donovan. However, a lot can happen between now and the start of qualifying.
Thanks for the recap of how the olympic candidates played this week -- I missed these threads. I've read that Buddle does amazing things in practice, and that people were/are waiting for him to breakout during league play. Maybe it's starting to happen. I agree with Sandon that it looks like EJ will be dropped before Buddle, but then again, a lot can happen before qualifying.
Donovan, Casey, Johnson, Quaranta, and Buddle will all make the roster. Donovan - attacking mid Quaranta - right attacking mid / forward Casey and Buddle seem fairly interchangeable, but, from what I've seen of Buddle this year, he can't be left off the team.
Buddle started this season as the 4th forward on the roster, behind McBride, Cunningham, and Washington. Now, there's some real talk that he should probably start up top with Cunningham. He's been playing so well it's tough to leave him out, even for McBride. That's why he played right mid in the place of the injured West against SJ. He's a real talent. If he could be a bit more like Twellman in the air, he'd be unstoppable. He's incredibly strong, and his one-man show against KC a few weeks ago was unbelievable. If everyone is healthy, I think EJ is the guy left behind. He's got lots of promise, but he's just not able to get minutes.
Convey played the full 90 in DC's loss. Gray came in during the 78th minute in Chicago's loss. Gooch's contract with Metz was voided due to financial problems and he is now teamless.
Buddle will make the roster as a forward. Santino will likely dislodge a right winger. Convey, Mapp and Santino will likely all make it in midfield, allowing a little cohesiveness. Johnson, Buddle and Connor will all make it as target forwards. Donovan will start as a forward and be the backup attacking midfielder. Obviously DaMarcus makes it as a winger as well. Guys like Donovan, DaMarcus, Santino, and Buddle are all versatile enough to play forward or winger, thus allowing the US to overcome fatigue, cycle our attackers during the run of play, and shift formations on the fly. -Tron
question: We all know Arena's system. But who does Rongen use his system for the Olympics?? Bruce loves attacking flank players and holding mids in the center. To that end he would build his roster that miximized it. Meaning that Quaranta would be a right A-Mid, DMB a left A-mid, with players like Kelly Gray and Kyle Martino and Bobby Convey in the middle. But playing more defensivly than anything. Donovan wouldn't touch the defense, he would be a forward. HOWEVER. We need a target forward. And as far as I can tell Ed Johnson and Edson Buddle are the only underage targets we have. BUT this is not Bruce Arena's team so how will it be built?? I think thats an important question when considering who will be given and who won't be given a shot. One name I haven't mentioned is Conors Casey
Rongen is a Dutch. So he will use players who can play in most of positons. I think both Buddle and E. Johnson will get the playing time. E. Johnson in U-17 remains me a lot of Kluvert dude. The problem is that Rongen may not coach the Olympic team instead of Sarachan.
Rongen loves versatility. Most of the guys mentioned have versatility, so here's a run down of how I envision them being used: Johnson: The only forward with the total package of size, speed, finishing, passing, can play with his back to the goal, hold the ball, makes intelligent runs, can play alone up top or with a partner, can play counter-attack, target forward, aerial finisher, aerial distributor, and even can play some defense. Will be used exclusively as a forward. Casey: Very effective target forward playing in the Bundesliga. Will be used to score through the air and agaisnt stacked defenses, to hold the ball, and occasionally will drop back into central midfield to help possession. Buddle: Much like Johnson but not particularly good in the air and slower. Has been very effective in MLS of late. He can slide into the midfield if necessary, but better suited up top. Santino: Equally effective as a creative forward feeding the target forwards and taking long range shots, or as a right winger flying box to box attacking and defending, crossing, and taking players one on one in space. Donovan: Best finisher, and extremely fast. Will start up top but probably float all over the attacking third looking for space. He could turn up in midfield in the center or on either wing, but will likely gravitate up top most of the time unless we are protecting a lead. DaMarcus: He's the wild card. At this level he is an outstanding defender and finisher. He can launch the counter attack with his dribble, his pass or be the finisher. He will slide up to the front line very often, and will switch with Convey into the center and even over to the right side on occasion. Convey: He's the central attacking midfielder, but he'll drift to his left setting up a switch with DaMarcus, and work triangles with his wingers and the withdrawn/creative forward. He will slide into open spaces in the midfield but not venture forward to finish very often. The US team's attack should be on par with almost every team in the Olympics. I don't see the US sitting back and counter-attacking very much. Our weakness is our defending though, so I'd expect to see our Dmid hanging back at all times. Ricardo Clark will be asked to maintain a deep position as the outlet man for back passes generally. -Tron
Guys, Rongen coaches the U20 team. The Olympic/U23 coach is currently Mooch Myernick though there are rumors and hints that Bruce will end up coaching the team with Mooch and Sarachan again being his assistants. Regarding Justin Mapp, barring an injury, his chances of making the Olympic team are slim. He's got DaMarcus Beasley and Brad Davis ahead of him on the left flank and if Landon Donovan plays attacking mid - and the aforementioned forward depth might make that happen - and/or Kyle Martino makes the team as a center mid, that pushes Bobby Convey to the left flank as well. No way does Mapp beat out Beasley, Davis and Convey to make the team and he isn't versatile enough to play anywhere but left mid.
Dangit! I thought Mooch was caretaking the Olympians, but when everyone was talking about Rongen it made me think he was also coaching them. I think Mapp has a shot at dislodging Brad Davis. The Olympics are a ways off. Plus, everyone is assuming no injuries--that's just not realistic. Yes, Martino is also in the mix, probably ahead of Mapp but behind Convey IMHO. -Tron
if Mayernick is coaching this team I think you'll see something like what you saw against Germany in the World Cup(3 - 5 - 2). My guess is that Bocanegra will make the Olympic squad as an over-age player, allowing for that formation. We play to our talents right? And we have a bevy of talented midfielders and forwards who can play Mids. Donovan, DMB, Convey, Quaranta, Martino, Kelly Gray, Ricardo Clark, Ed Johnson, Devin Barclay, Edson Buddle, Connors Casey, and I'd suspect that Pablo will make the team as another over-age player. Guess here? Pablo to anchor the D-Mid let DMB and Quaranta play the offense/defense wingers, and then run the offense through LD/Martino. Up fron we'd start Connors Casey with Barclay to start out I'd think. At least if they use Bruce's current system. Please correct me here, I am just guessing.
Based, exactly, on what? The 12 minutes of MLS experience he's gained this year? Davis, has played in 21 games for a good team, starting 11 of them and has scored 4 goals and 3 assists. Playing for the league's worst team, Mapp has managed to get off the bench twice and has made no impact. Mapp is 3 years younger than Davis so he started the season behind him developmentally. Now, with Davis being a regular and Mapp being a scrub, that gap has only widened. Yes, it can change in the next 18 months before qualifiying, but it's a big gap and right now it's growing, not shirnking. Uh, probably ahead of Mapp? Perhaps you haven't noticed, but Martino is actually starting for a playoff team. And he's not just starting, he's starting at the playmaking mid spot, a rarety in MLS for an American, let alone a 21-year old rookie. Martino's stats - 21 games, 15 starts, 2 goals, 5 assists - imply he's done pretty well too. I'd say he's definitely ahead of Mapp right now. We can argue about whether he's ahead of Convey some other time but Convey needs to start playing the same position for this to be a valid argument. Right now Convey is a left mid and Tron, I'm sure even you wouldn't argue that he's ahead of Mapp, there. That said, I think Mapp has talent and I think Ray has mismanaged him this year. Mapp has always struggled with his consistency over 90 minutes but in flashes he can be quite impressive and in MLS he could - and should - be the ideal 65th or 70th minute sub for a side that needs a goal, like United usually does. To have not played him this year, particualrly on a bad and offensively inept team like United, is a major waste.
I don't get how that dude thought Mapp deserves a shot over Davis as of NOW. Davis has been injured, sure, but he has contributed in the games he's played. Plus his touch under pressure is outstanding.
Don't forget the USOC semifinal match tonight at 8PM eastern on FSW... I'd expect both Buddle and Martino to start for Columbus tonight. Good opportunity to check the two of them out in a big match.
Buddle U-23 team I share the concerns of others that Buddle might not make the Olympic team. Why? Buddle was left off the roster for the U-23s trip over to Portgual last winter in favor of Alecko Eskandarian and Nate Jaqua. Of course, Mooch called him up as a replacement for Jaqua when he got injured in Portugal. It's not a good sign though, when the coach picks two college players over a second-year pro. At the U-20 finals, all of our success came when Buddle was the focal point of the attack. He linked up extremely well with Beasley and Donovan. Notice, the team didn't create much offense without Buddle in the lineup (that may be due to opponents, but I still would rather have seen Buddle in the starting lineup for the China game). It was unfortunate that he was too sick to start during the Egypt game. Buddle is very athletic compared to other players in the pool at forward. IMHO, he can move better than all of the other target forwards (except maybe Ed Johnson), plus he's got good strength as mentioned before, and very nice skill to pass the ball in traffic around the goal. I don't remember his aerial game being that big of a weakness. The guy has plenty of size to be a threat in the air. Let's face it with the ball at his feet, he has shown that he can be a special player. The Crew were playing him out of position at right midfield earlier in the year. But, he played well up top when McBride was away in Korea. He's scored 9 goals this year in MLS in about 1100 minutes. He's been red hot during the last month. I think he needs more time in the USA camps during the offseason to polish his game. I hope he gets called up to the senior camp in the offseason. It could be a great benefit. And he should never be left behind at the U-23 level again. He is one of my favorite players, so I'm a little biased, but I really enjoy watching him.
SO far, I think Casey has got the nod at starting striker. What is it about Buddle that could make HIM the starter? Anyone?
When Donovan and Beasley starred in U-17 at 1999, both of them made a big push for 2000 Olympics (even though Beasley was crimanally left behind). So we have to assume some very good players in our current U-17 may make some push too. In the forward spots, we may not need a McBride type forward if we can build the attacks out of the back. So if some of big type forwards who can have a good foot skill that will be better for us. Three players--Casey, Buddle and E. Johnson are fit into this mode. In other slashing forward spot, we have Donovan, Quaranta and Magee. This team will be Donovan's team so we can build the foundation for 2006. So if Donovan is in forward, then Martino, Convey (or Memo and Freddy) will play the a-mid. Or if Donovan plays a-mid, we can start two of forwards from 5 of above with Martino and Co. as backup. In the wings, we can see Beasley starting on the left with Davis and Mapp as backup competitors. For making the team, one of them may want to work on in left back or even better on right wing. Right now, there is no established right midfielder now. But apparently Barclay, Quaranta, D. Joshson are can play for this one. The d-mid is the weakest position for last U-20, but get stronger in this U-20 with Clarke and Stone. Expect them make the jump. Wing backs are also a problem. Onyewu better to find a club he can play RIGHT NOW. The current U-20 seems better than last one on left wing and of course the center too. Center defense are wide open right now. Gary is the only one who is playing in first team right now.
While it's certainly not impossible that one of the current U17s could make the Athens squad, I think it is doubtful. While I'm aware that Casey, Donovan and Beasley (for 2000 qualifying) "played up" with the 23s the last cycle, that is largely in part because most of the players in that U23 cycle didn't have much pro experience. Here's a look at the players from the last pool, excluding the over-age players. Chris Albright - 99 DaMarcus Beasley (qualifying only) - 99 Adin Brown (qualifying only) - 2000 Dan Califf - 2000 Conor Casey - 2001 Steve Cherundolo (qualifying only) - 1999 Ramiro Corrales - 1995 Eric Denton (qualifying only) - 2000 Joey DiGiamarino (Olympics only) - 1998 Landon Donovan - 1999 Brian Dunseth - 1998 Tim Howard - 1998 Chad McCarty - 1998 John O'Brien - 1997 Ben Olsen - 1998 John Thorrington (qualifying only) - 1999 Pete Vagenas - 2000 Sasho Victorine (Olympics only) - 2000 Evan Whitfield (Olympics only) - 2000 Brian Winters (qualifying only) - 2000 Josh Wolff - 1998 Look how many players became pros either the year of the Olympics or the year before. Now, compare that to the pro experience of the current U23 pool. Most of the team turned pro 2-3 (at least) years before the 2004 Olympics giving them a big leg up on the younger players like Guillermo Gonzalez and Arturo Alvarez, etc... Now, I'm not saying it won't happen. I mean, if a Gonzalez or Spector turns pro next year and cranks it up, perhaps they'll make it, but I think it's unlikely. I would say that as we speak there are only about 5 spots on the 04 Olympic team that are up for grabs and could be taken by a player who is currently not a professional player: *One of the GK spots - Presuming he's healthy, DJ Countess will get one of the GK spots with the other one likey to go to either Doug Warren (Clemson) or Steve Cronin (Santa Clara), though there are several other college GKs who could be considered if their pro careers get off to a good start next year or even in 2004. *Starting Left back - Phil Salyer is a frontrunner for this spot because he's already a pro but he's certainly not a lock. Ricky Lewis (Clemson) and Chefik Simo (Furman) both could make a run for this spot though Fimo is only a freshman and would have to turn pro fairly soon. *A starting central defender, maybe - Kelly Gray, Alex Yi, Frankie Simek, Nelson Akwari and, yes, Zak Whitbred, are all frontrunners for these spots and could take both starting spots and a reserve center back spot. But, if there is a center back spot up for grabs that won't go to a current pro player, David Stokes (North Carolina), Chad Marshall (Stanford) and Ryan Cochrane (Santa Clara) are the front-runners, though current U17 stud Jon Spector could play up. *Reserve defenders - With an 18-man roster, we're realistically looking at a back-up center back and a back-up wing-back. The center back will almost certainly be one of the players listed in the above list who doesn't start. If Salyer starts at left back, the versatile Lewis could be the reserve wing back. However, another candidate is another one who could play up and that is Hunter Freeman (Virginia) an 85 who can play either flank and, like Lewis, in the middle. However, if Lewis, as expected, turns pro this winter, he'll likely have a leg up on Freeman unless he leaves school after one semester. *Defensive midfield - It will be considered a surpsie if Ricardo Clark (Furman) isn't either the starting or the backup D-mid. But, he is by no means a lock with potential competition coming from current pros like Jordan Stone, Jesus Ochoa, Kyle Beckerman and David Johnson. *Right mid - This will likely go to a current pro who is coverted from forward - Santino Quaranta, Devin Barclay - or the other side of midfield - Bobby Convey, Brad Davis. But, non pros who could make a run are Adolfo Gregorio (UCLA), Marcus Storey (North Carolina) and if you want a darkhorse, Matt McCausland (San Diego.) Current U17 right mid John DiRmaindo is reportedly a superb crosser and he could be one of the few people who would be playin up who has a chance. So while a player playing up isn't impossible, chances are pretty slim that it will happen this cycle.
It seems like Buddle has been continually undervalued. In the 2001 MLS draft, despite being a P-40 and having solid A-League credentials, he was shockingly passed over until the 27th pick (I wonder if the Metros people leap out of bed at night remembering taking Kerwyn "The Hardest" Jemmott at 26 instead of the local kid). I can't but help but think he was saddled with some negative impressions about his coachability, work habits or teamwork that have not yet been completely dislodged. Mind you, I'm not saying that I think any of that is true, just a possible explanation for his consistently being underrated.
Ahh the passion of big soccer. Sandon, as you know, I think you deserve to be an All-Star. In fact, I cannot think of anyone that deserves it more. But, on this issue we disagree. Nope, I'm not basing my assessment on Mapp's 12 minutes of MLS. But, let's explain why he has had so few minutes in MLS. The guy has been playing with the U-20's and done well, the same thing that Brad Davis did a year and two years ago. Davis played forward more than winger, but can play either. As a forward, he had bigger stats. Mapp is still finishing High School, and wasn't in preseason, or even with United until very recently for more than a couple of days at a time. So, no, I'm not basing it on the few minutes he played after moving from High School/U-20 games into the final quarter of an MLS season without any preseason or season to train, get accustomed to the speed change, his teammates, the coach, a more defensive role, etc. I think in the U-17's big games he displayed a lot of technical ability. In the MLS Pre-SuperDraft camp he showed fantastic technical ability--more than Davis. Since then, Mapp has played for the U-20's and done well. Both Davis and Mapp are big (5'11 each) and fast (Mapp is a little faster IMHO) and technically skilled left footers. Mapp's biggest weakness is that he really doesn't have a good right foot, whereas Davis does. But, I see Mapp as having Preki-like talent. He has the ability to cut back amazingly quickly and release a pass, cross or shot faster than most. I don't really have much faith that Rongen or Dave Dir will turn either player into a defender. I similarly don't expect Zambrano to do that. But, if there is one thing I must give Hudson credit for, it's his stressing of defense, and I give him credit for Convey's improved defense. Already in the short period of time I've seen Mapp play in MLS, I've seen more defensive effort than he usually displays. So, I think Mapp will become the better defender and the more dangerous passer. I think Davis has outstanding talent. In fact, I listed him as a sleeper for the national team (despite being a sub for the US Youth team) and a future Kreis-type player. I think that is true, but Davis is more athletic than Kreis. But, I think Mapp will prove to be the more effective winger on both sides of the ball. I realize that you do not agree. That's cool, intelligent discussion is the joy that is big soccer. -Tron