So you think the summaries/conclusions in these series aren't entirely complete? He includes Muller more often than Pele; he rates the football branch designed by Poland and 'Holland' but just not the footballers itself. https://beyondthelastman.com/2013/0...xis-football-in-a-smooth-and-cultured-groove/ https://beyondthelastman.com/2014/03/10/eric-battys-world-xis-the-eighties-and-nineties/ https://beyondthelastman.com/2013/11/07/eric-battys-world-xis-the-seventies/ https://beyondthelastman.com/2013/04/29/eric-battys-world-xis-the-sixties/
My take is that he's basically omitting Cruyff (and possibly Neeskens to a degree) to get a reaction out of the audience. Whenever he's not specifically out to make a statement, we end up with slip-ups like in that article I posted. On Ajax he's actually been mostly positive, whereas with the Dutch NT he seemed traumatized after watching the two Belgium games in the qualifiers.
All Match Reports for the Amsterdam tournament from Dutch press are available on the net Here one example for the final match replay, texts often in the middle of a page http://resolver.kb.nl/resolve?urn=ddd:010002574:mpeg21:pdf http://resolver.kb.nl/resolve?urn=ddd:010360280:mpeg21:pdf http://resolver.kb.nl/resolve?urn=ddd:010029703:mpeg21:pdf For the other games by following the match day. Every single match for the 1928 tournament with in-depth analysis and detail, there are many other websites as well on the subject more than 4 or 5. 1920 & 1924 Olympics tournaments are available too with rich information.
Since this is actually one of those old lists I mean (1980s and before) I move it to this thread over here. Thus at April/May 1974 the newspaper of Venezuela consulted 178 people with as result: Zamora; Djalma Santos, Moore, Beckenbauer, Nilton Santos; Gerson, Nestor Rossi; Garrincha, Di Stefano, Pele, Gento Yashin; Facchetti, Schnellinger, Perfumo, Marzolini; Didi, Beckenbauer; Jairzinho, Muller, Cruijff, Charlton Pelé received 124 of 178 possible votes, followed by Di Stefano with 99 and Gerson with 74. Notice here how Cruijff is the only one of a 'small' country - and small language - to be among these names (the 2nd smallest country is Spain). He is imho real underdog and against-the-odds footballer in history, the real player who brought a small club to the top. The most important person (among other important figures) of Holland as #3 in Elo since then. Great find and this are the type of things I mean.
Just to remark, that venezolan newspaper made the poll among coaches, players, journalists and local fans.
Here is one from before the 1994 World Cup where they encouraged the persons (generally involved in sports, but not always football) to be somewhat biased. The question was phrased as to select their "dream team". How the team would look in their sleeping dreams. https://resolver.kb.nl/resolve?urn=KBPERS01:003120016:mpeg21:a00169 Yashin; Rijkaard, Baresi, Beckenbauer, Maldini; Neeskens, Maradona; Gullit, Cruijff, Van Basten, Pele Most selected: Cruijff 18/22 (= 81%) Pele 17/22 Beckenbauer 14/22 Maradona 13/22 Neeskens 10/22 Van Basten 8/22 Yashin 8/22 Gullit 7/22 Maldini 7/22 Baresi 6/22 Garrincha 6/22 Krol 6/22 Platini 6/22 Rijkaard 6/22 Koeman 5/22 I post it here because Maldini was already in consideration at this point, despite having some domestic nuancing critics as well (incl. Cruijff, who later naturally backed down, but was in particular critical about his playing ability, with as result that a defensive non-scoring/assisting left back doesn't 'make' or break a team - looking at GoalImpact etc. and his later club salary there is possibly some truth in it). Maybe though the respondents think "I have seen Milan so often in the final stages, and Italy twice in the semi final, my dreams will construct this." Some of these players naturally benefit, too, from being placed at multiple positions.
This is though one of the most biased things I've seen from domestic sources. It is at the top end what I have seen but the phrasing of it contributes. Of course this was just after the 1994 CL final... would have been more interesting at an earlier date.
I ran into a couple of useful but random listings from 40s Brazilian papers. Sport Ilustrado lists the following players: Sindelar James Bastin Winley(?) Drake Zamora Pinga Espirito Santo Peyroteo Piola Meazza Ferrari Sarosi Honores Scarone Cea Andrade Romano +A bunch of Brazilians and Argentinians Trainer Emerich Hirschl lists his greatest players: Zamora Platko Hiden Planicka Combi Quincoces Sesta Ciriaco Rosetta Caligaris Sindelar Samitier Bloomer Crompton Bastin Drake Lawton Sarosi Morton Gallacher Meazza Ferrari Friedenreich Seoane Neco Piendibene Romano Tesoriere Olazar Bidoglio Da Guia +some contemporary Brazilians.
Thanks. I notice quite an over-representation of 1930s players here? (excluding the British players) Has maybe something to do with that 1920s Spain, Italy, Germany weren't that great. Amateurs, no national league or even championship, there was no national team coach until late 1920s etc. Results/inconsistency at the tournaments as Olympics bear that out. Compared to for example a country as Denmark, Austria or Holland.
The lists come off as not that official. Maybe they just rattled off the players that came to mind, which would have been more recent players. Also, I can imagine SA-knowledge of 20s European players might have been minuscule.
I was thinking in T.Lindley, but hard to imagine that brazilian journalist from 1943, knows him. Interesting, to see peruvian Honores (one of the top SA keepers from late 30s-early 40s) It's very interesting to see opinions from people who played/coached at both continents (from 1941): Europe GK: Zamora, Platko, Hiden, Planicka + Combi DF: Sesta, Quincoces + Ciriaco, Rosetta, Caligaris, Crompton MF: - . FW: Sindelar, Samitier, Bloomer, Bastin, Drake, Lawton, Sarosi, Morton, Gallacher, Meazza, Ferrari S.America GK: Tesoriere DF: Bidoglio, Da Guia MF: Olazar FW: Friedenreich, Seoane, Neco, Piendibene, Romano, Leonidas, Petronilho. Also compares Rosario clubs playing a sort of scottish style of passing (short, fast and penetrating).
Emerich Hirschl did not chose those names. The dynamic of interview was that the reporter mentioned names to see Hirschl's opinion about them. Apparently they agreed with most names, with the only clear exception being Sesta (the reporter thinks he's one of the best and Hirschl did not agree).
It's not an old list, but received in the weekend this book, by Raf Willems with help from Francois Colin et al. Published august 2020. 111 legendary football heroes since 1920 The profiles are really good, here below in the link the profile on Kompany can be read, an honest assessment about his merit, his highs and his lows. It's a good read and reflective of almost all other profiles. "He reached his zenith in 2012. In 2018 the best had shone by. [...] And yet: he could not climb that last step to the world top. After eight minutes in the quarterfinals, his breakout attempt got lost in midfield, and Argentina scored on the counter. It remained 1-0. From then on, the turning point presented itself for Kompany. The ideal image had some dents. What should have been his personal highlight - EURO 2016 - ended in a derailment, partly due to his absence due to injury. [...] But what about the Red Devils? Between Brazil 2014 and Russia 2018, he donned the national team shirt barely eight times." https://dewitteduivel.com/vincent-kompany-body-meets-mind-het-lichaam-de-geest-rw/ There are some debatable choices. Gerrard and Scholes are in, but not Lampard. Netzer is in, but not Matthaus. Cantona and Rensenbrink are in, not Bergkamp. Salah is in, not Lewandowski. Koeman, but not Krol. Socrates, not Falcao. Del Piero, not Totti (I agree with that!). Sometimes it's also one player, or a group of players, covers other players as well (Bergkamp as an extension of the Three Tulips at Milan; Falcao as an extension of Zico and Socrates). The most surprising inclusion for me is Nwankwo Kanu. I'll try to translate his profile later. After reading that, it certainly makes sense to me that he's there. The one on Panenka is also good, the penalty is only a small part. (vs France in 1979) It's roughly on chronological order, but not quite. Billy Meredith (prologue) Louis van Hege Jose Leandro Andrade Giuseppe Meazza Raymond Braine Matthias Sindelar Stanley Matthews Fritz Walter Ernst Happel Nandor Hidegkuti Ferenc Puskas Sandor Kocsis Ladislao Kubala Alfredo di Stefano Raymond Kopa Francisco Gento Didi Garrincha Lev Yashin Eusebio Gianni Rivera Sandro Mazzola Paul van Himst Bobby Moore Gordon Banks Bobby Charlton Denis Law George Best Jimmy Johnstone Gerson Roberto Rivellino Jairzinho Tostao Pele Gunter Netzer Gerd Muller Franz Beckenbauer Willem van Hanegem Johan Neeskens Johan Cruijff Oleg Blochin Antonin Panenka Kevin Keegan Jan van Beveren Rob Rensenbrink Mario Kempes Zico Socrates Paolo Rossi Dino Zoff Kenny Dalglish Michel Platini Jan Ceulemans Jean-Marie Pfaff Diego Armando Maradona Eric Gerets Marco van Basten Frank Rijkaard Ruud Gullit Jurgen Klinsmann Franco Baresi Paolo Maldini Dejan Savicevic Ronald Koeman Hristo Stoitchkov Michael Laudrup Romario Roberto Baggio Peter Schmeichel Eric Cantona Nwankwo Kanu George Weah Marcel Desailly Lilian Thuram Zinedine Zidane Luis Figo Raul David Beckham Rivaldo Ronaldo Clarence Seedorf Edwin van der Sar Steven Gerrard Alessandro del Piero Andrea Pirlo Henrik Larsson Ronaldinho Thierry Henry Paul Scholes Ryan Giggs Carles Puyol Iker Casillas Samuel Eto'o Didier Drogba Xavi Sergio Busquets Andres Iniesta Arjen Robben Philipp Lahm Manuel Neuer Thomas Muller Zlatan Ibrahimovic Vincent Kompany Neymar Thibaut Courtois Eden Hazard Luka Modric Mohamed Salah Cristiano Ronaldo Kylian Mbappe Lionel Messi Kevin de Bruyne Marcus Rashford (epilogue) To be followed tomorrow by what's said on Kanu.
Kanu was one of the players included (among a similar number to 120, maybe a bit more) in one of the first 'Best Players ever' books I bought too Puck. I guess his reputation was at it's peak then, or had been not long before. Of course I knew all about him and had seen him quite a bit (not in the 1996 Olympics with Nigeria or something, but quite often in the CL with Ajax and then obviously at Arsenal where he did make a very good impact at first, including scoring a famous goal from nearly on the goal line in a wide position vs Chelsea after going neatly around the goalkeeper for example). So maybe it wasn't massively surprising he was in that book I mention at least, as a stand-out African player (Weah and Milla were in too though of course).
I knew I'd posted the full list of names from that book I refer to, so I've searched that out and can copy and paste below (rather than quoting myself).... From the Greatest Football Players of All Time book published by Southwater (quite a lot of British players): Florian Albert Jose Altafini Osvaldo Ardiles Roberto Baggio Gordon Banks Franco Baresi Cliff Bastin Gabriel Batistuta Jim Baxter Franz Beckenbauer David Beckham Dennis Bergkamp George Best Danny Blanchflower Oleg Blokhin Zbigniew Boniek Liam Brady Billy Bremner Emilio Butragueno Eric Cantona Roberto Carlos Carlos Alberto John Charles Bobby Charlton Ray Clemence Mario Coluna Johan Cruyff Teofilo Cubillas Zoltan Czibor Kenny Dalglish Edgar Davids Alessandro Del Piero Kazimierz Deyna Didi Alfredo Di Stefano Dixie Dean Dragan Dzajic Duncan Edwards Stefan Effenberg Eusebio Giacinto Facchetti Giovanni Ferrari Luis Figo Tom Finney Just Fontaine Paulo Futre Garrincha Paul Gascoigne Claudio Gentile Francisco Gento Ryan Giggs Johnny Giles Jimmy Greaves Gunnar Gren Ruud Gullit Gheorghe Hagi Kurt Hamrin Alan Hansen Ernst Happel Johnny Haynes Nandor Hidegkuti Glenn Hoddle Jairzinho Alex James Pat Jennings Jimmy Johnstone Nwankwo Kanu Roy Keane Kevin Keegan Mario Kempes Jurgen Klinsmann Patrick Kluivert Sandor Kocsis Ronald Koeman Raymond Kopa Ruud Krol Ladislav Kubala Gzregorz Lato Michael Laudrup Denis Law Tommy Lawton Nils Liedholm Gary Lineker Sepp Maier Paolo Maldini Diego Maradona Josef Masopust Lothar Matthaus Stanley Matthews Sandro Mazzola Billy McNeill Giussepe Meazza Roger Milla Bobby Moore Stan Mortensen Gerd Muller Johan Neeskens Gunter Netzer Gunnar Nordahl Wolfgang Overath Ariel Ortega Michael Owen Jean-Pierre Papin Daniel Passarella Pele Michel Platini Robert Prosinecki Ferenc Puskas Thomas Ravelli Frank Rijkarrd Luigi Riva Rivaldo Gianni Rivera Paolo Rossi Bryan Robson Romario Ronaldo Karl-Heinz Rummenigge Ian Rush Matthias Sammer Hugo Sanchez Gyorgy Sarosi Dejan Savicevic Juan Schiaffino Peter Schmeichel Enzo Scifo Uwe Seeler Alan Shearer Peter Shilton Omar Sivori Socrates Graeme Souness Hristo Stoichkov Luis Suarez Miramontes Davor Suker Marco van Basten Carlos Valderrama Paul van Himst Juan Sebastien Veron Gianluca Vialli Christian Vieri George Weah Billy Wright Lev Yashin Zico Zinedine Zidane Dino Zoff Andoni Zubizarreta Just as with the selection of names in the Willems list, I guess overall there was certainly a tendency to include names from 'home nations' football, as well as a good number of recent stars. Kanu made his mark in both the Netherlands and then England of course. Doing that (by having the idea to search for posts of mine including the names Kanu and Overath!) reminded me of something else too (because of the other post I'd made that was returned with that criteria): Kanu did receive 25 points in World Soccer's Player of the Century poll too (although if I remember correctly didn't make the second 'guide list' of 100 names that comme posted once on the forum at my request I remember, even though I seem to think both Ikpeba and Yekini, fellow Nigerians were included in that: anyway nevertheless a decent amount of voters decided to include Kanu in their votes which reflects his reputation at the time I guess, even if just like with many other players who were voted for it would seem a big stretch for people to be voting him in their top 10 lists all-time at that moment still!).
Thank you for sharing this. The list is from 2001 or 2002 right? Glaring how neither Desailly or Thuram is in. So I scanned it in, put translate over it, corrected some text errors (automatic translation sometimes 'ugly')... Nwankwo Kanu "Football is a game of fun" Nigeria - Brazil 4-3, semi final Olympic Games, 31 july 1996. At a 3-2 deficit against Rivaldo, Bebeto, Roberto Carlos and Ronaldo thought Nwankwo Kanu in the last minute a smart move. Received the ball with the back to the goal, ahead of the keeper: whip up with his right and a subtle volley next to the post. Four minutes later, during extra time, a feint at the height of the penalty area edge and a diagonal bomb with the left. Every time carried by the tranquility in his head while looking over the state of being. Golden Goal: 4-3, the 'Super Eagles' to the climax against Argentina. In front of 87000 they beat the bookmakers and fan favorite with fantastic football, again in extra time: 3-2. 'Magic Kanu was here.' The grace of the Eagles rhythm contrasted with the vulgarity of the Nigerian military regime and the inhuman living conditions the population found itself in. 'Wearing a uniform means that regardless of where and when you can blackmail for money', sang Fela Kuti, the Nigerian king of the Afrobeat. In 'The Trouble with Nigeria' the writer Chinua Achebe signed his country as follows: 'Nigeria is dirty, numb, pompous, noisy, unfair and vulgar.' That was the consequence of the bulky corruption by consecutive military regimes. The ones who stood up against injustices risked persecution or the death penalty. Nwankwo Kanu was only seventeen when the Ajax of Louis van Gaal attracted him in 1993. He had just won the junior World Championship. He lingered dearly in his birth-town Owerri, where everyone knew each other and the atmosphere varied between pleasant and exuberant. In Amsterdam an initial period began of loneliness in hotel rooms. It was hard to expel the homesickness. In Owerri his extraordinary feeling for the ball came to life. He learned to twist and turn, as if it were completely natural movements for him. His father and brother could do the same and he too. Be it a little bit better, fluent and with a born suppleness. Getting played in with a man in your back, lean back and control the ball. With left, with the right, at the ground and in the air, beyond the catch of the defenders. It didn't matter to him. He dominated the ball with his long legs and posture. Lanky, unpredictable and yet calculated too. He footballed as ever, as back somewhere in the dusty savanna. The overview and calmness in his game also helped him in the daily life. A silent person, with an aversion to yelling. He communicated by silence: 'They can see on my face whether it was a bad ball or not.' He sought inspiration in religion. Prayed often, because he felt good and comfort in his faith. Through this he kept his calmness with success and setbacks. Between his seventeenth and twentieth year he won the whole lot: World Cup under 17, league titles, Champions League and Intercontinental Cup with Ajax, Olympic Gold. It delivered him a huge transfer to ambitious Internazionale. Then came 'The Message' as a strike in the blue sky: 'heart defect, never play again, life in danger.' The death didn't inspire him with fear. The doctors saw his recovery with pessimism. They rightly praised his mental fortitude and regarded his healing as a miracle. Just as Kanu himself: 'In Nigeria they believe it was God who healed me. With the hands of the doctors. If you believe in God, you find strength in it." The long painful road to Canossa started. Only in june the light went green. Subsequently his muscular system got overworked and he processed one injury after another. The appetite of Inter shrank. Arsene Wenger and Arsenal charmed themselves by the old 'Kanuvian' moves and connected him in 1998, costing five million to Inter. In the top match against Manchester United he again succeeded (1:03:55): with the ball on his feet in one drag turning away from Jaap Stam - who had face-to-face dealt succesfully with the biggest names in world football - and shooting on goal. Out his blocked shot Anelka scored the 0-1. One year later he enjoyed his moment of highest delight when rival Chelsea, and the fresh world champions Leboeuf and Desailly, had closed the books after 75 minutes with 2-0 ahead. Kanu turned around the seemingly hopeless situation with a hat-trick within one quarter: 2-3. 'Magic Kanu was back.' He wanted to be an example for thousands of street children: 'If you make football and goals too important, you take away the neatness. We played the pure street football. That is our nature. Football is a game of fun. Thanks to all who understood me.' Appearances and starts: https://www.afc-ajax.info/nl/voetballer/Nwankwo-Kanu https://www.bdfutbol.com/en/j/j93787.html ---------------------- Listed Honours: Champion of Nigeria (1993) Champion of the Netherlands (1994, 1995, 1996) Champions League (1995) European Supercup (1995) Intercontinental Cup (1995) UEFA Cup (1998) Champion of England (2002, 2004) FA Cup (2002, 2003, 2008) UEFA Cup runners-up (2000) Interlands 87 Olympic Champion (1996) Afro-Asian Champion (1995) African Championship runners-up (2000) African Footballer of the Year 1996, 1999 edit: they could have mentioned this one too I guess. Or his 2008 FA Cup final.
Yeah, that's true. See also the inclusion of Henrik Larsson for example (who wasn't there yet in your list of 2002?). Anyway, I thought it would be interesting to share, what choices are made, and got the book primarily for the profiles.
Yeah, if the profiles all live up to the standard of that Kanu one they will be a great collection I think!
Ben Barek is on the book's cover but he is not in the list? Or it is just an oversight (I did not count the totals of players)?
I thought that was Didi on the cover but you recognize his face better I guess. I saw the name Ben Barek flowing around in one of these entries I remember. Kopa is a logical entry for his pan-European profile from his late twenties on. Unless my eyes betray me he hasn't an individual profile.
Kanu was African and a heart defect survivor whose career was supposed to be over by the mid-90s. The social cred points are off the scale. Other players who have to go on football ability alone can't compete.
Yeah, he was the most surprising for me. To play the devil's advocate though and see it (overly) positive: he has still 600 professional games, 60+ Champions League games (e.g. Zidane has 80), gathered a diverse and full trophy cabinet (with varying contribution, but in each case playing just about enough games for a medal if that would be a criteria), and was man of the match material in finals for club and country, more than a decade apart. In a physical league and with the league at it's most defensive if anything. It's also hard to criticize his ability I'd say; the consistent application of the ability and contribution/influence to the team more so.
Thanks. Probably they thought it was Andrade. For instance, this website made a confusion between Andrade and Ben Barek as well when selecting a picture for the Uruguayan, but it is well Ben Barek (with the old logo of OM on his chest). So, I had a little hope to learn more about his Belgian spell (in amateur divisions) but anyway. Looking forward to see other profiles indeed.