First off, the only reason Tulsa is in the running is because of a successful NASL franchise from 20 years ago... Tulsans know that MLS is the only major league sport the city is capable of attracting (no pipedreams of possible NHL or NBA franchises in T-Town). I get sick of people acting like there is no connection between NASL and MLS... the MLS game I drove to in Dallas looked like another sad replay of attendance in the Dallas Tornado days. I say NASL success should be ONE factor among many used to award a franchise... Do you think it's any coincidence that DC got a team and Baltimore did not? Or San Jose rather than Oakland or SF? Or that a stadium "designed with soccer in mind" was an integral part of a Seattle stadium deal? Tulsa already HAS a generation of soccer fans who embraced the team. And Hunt knows/likes the situation in Tulsa from those NASL days. That said, I think success in Tulsa or OKC will come down to factors of marketing, media, SSS, and long term I/Os rather than rely on the fact that OKC is a slightly larger market than Tulsa. And Laramie-- as for Mayor LaFortune, what do you want him to do? Sit on his hands and watch an opportunity pass by that may never come back? He's only been in office a few weeks/months and suddenly finds himself in a situation of "now or never" because of OKC's MLS bid. Official word (and common sense) dictates that if OKC gets a franchise, Tulsa will not. As for the sometimes contentious rivalry between the two cities, that may be a motivating factor in getting something actually done that should have happened when Susan Savage was mayor of Tulsa. SSS (or is it DDS now?) in Brady district has a much better chance of passage than previous proposals. "Politics as usual" would put a SSS/DSS way down the list in a bad economy. The competing proposals will motivate both cities to come up with something more tangible than EITHER could come up with on their own. I think the proposal at Wantland Stadium/Edmond is not a very strong one. This is more and more sounding like "Plan A" since we've heard no other stories from the OKC mayor's office or anything from the fairgrounds people. So, let's put the hateful competition aside for a moment: Aug. investors meeting-- LaFortune: "As many of you know, both Tulsans and MLS have been expressing interest in securing a franchise here for some time. I know this is not the best of economic times, but this is an opportunity we need to address sooner rather than later... OKC is putting together a competing proposal and we need to come up with concrete proposals for MLS and present any bond issues/tax proposals quickly." mayor informs potential I/Os how many million each will be projected to lose annually for the next 10 years... potential I/Os run out of the room, screaming, "and they want us to build them a stadium, too???" Mayor of Edmond meets with Lund: Mayor: "So, you'll finance most of the stadium expansion costs and we'll take care of the ammenities... by the way, the high school coaches want FieldTurf and the city/EPS/UCO will control all fall scheduling at the proposed stadium" Lund: "Gee, I'm sorry mayor, but that won't fly... MLS officials have let me know that Tulsa's proposal doesn't contain those limitations... guess I'll have to talk with Mayor Humphries on this one." OKC Mayor Humphries: "Sorry Mr. Lund, but I'm just too busy getting that arena ball franchise that folded in Tulsa to have any interest in your 'little project.'" Lund tells Humphries that Tulsa may secure a MLS team to which OKC mayor responds with a Homeresque "D'OH!" This is what we call a win/win situation. Please don't whine about politics when those politics are working in your favor...
Sounds like you heard crocodile tears from some riled-up rednecks... remember am1430 is Tulsa's version of OKC's "sports animal" and has Jim Rome on EVERY AFTERNOON. There were people who loved it when the 'necks folded--"Git rid of them damn foreigners and their commie-luvin game!" And they loved it even more when the Outlaws USFL team came to town. If memory serves, the Outlaws drew 25-30K per game (not big enough for USFL) while the Roughnecks drew 15-20K per game-- until the final year when they drew under 10K per game for the first time after completing a 40-game indoor season and new owners changed the team colors to from red/black to pea green/piss yellow... you're right, the league collapsed but soccer fans were kinda burned out, too-- our rivals kept folding (Chicago Sting seemed to be the only rival we had left). I don't think those squeeky-wheel types who call sports radio bellyaching about the demise of arena football are gonna be the same fans for a MLS team. They just sound like the same old fans who felt the Roughnecks somehow took away coverage from the far more deserving sujects of: bass fishing, the AA baseball team and the ongoing summer saga of OU/Okie State football...
Blowing smoke! USRufnex: And Laramie-- as for Mayor LaFortune, what do you want him to do? Sit on his hands and watch an opportunity pass by that may never come back? He's only been in office a few weeks/months and suddenly finds himself in a situation of "now or never" because of OKC's MLS bid. Official word (and common sense) dictates that if OKC gets a franchise, Tulsa will not. As for the sometimes contentious rivalry between the two cities, that may be a motivating factor in getting something actually done that should have happened when Susan Savage was mayor of Tulsa. SSS (or is it DDS now?) in Brady district has a much better chance of passage than previous proposals. Response: No, I don't expect Mayor LaFortune to sit on his hands; however, I think he's blowing smoke and trying to buy time and keep the interest there hoping something comes up. Yes, I expect him to do something and not sit on his hands. True, for now, this will be the only sport in which Tulsa can go major league. Why have you guys waited so long to go after a team NOW that interest in Oklahoma City has surfaced? Based on the information and personal experiences I have had, Tulsa would be a better market for MLS. Tulsa just can't seem to get any venues built and the private sector (with all of its oil money) isn't willing to privately fund a stadium and yet no immediate investors seem to come forward. Competition is good though, I would prefer that MLS goes to Tulsa first; because I believe that if Tulsa gets and team, Oklahoma City will eventually get one. If Oklahoma City gets a team first, Tulsa will definitely be locked out in the cold. As you mentioned about soccer being the only sport in which Tulsa could support on the major league level--that's true, I look for Oklahoma City to have an NHL franchise after the 2004 CBA agreement.
Re: Blowing smoke! orig posted by laramie No, I don't expect Mayor LaFortune to sit on his hands; however, I think he's blowing smoke and trying to buy time and keep the interest there hoping something comes up. Yes, I expect him to do something and not sit on his hands. Actually, if ANYONE has been blowing smoke and trying to buy time, it is Mr. Lund and the Express Sports people. From DAY ONE, they have kept the press updated on every bit of pre-mature speculation while Tulsa's negotiations have gone largely unseen (until yesterday)... if there were no possible OKC bid, I still think Tulsa officials would have been present at the all-star game. I think LaFortune is genuinely impressed by MLS "coming to us" and by Hunt's guided tour of CCS. True, for now, this will be the only sport in which Tulsa can go major league. Why have you guys waited so long to go after a team NOW that interest in Oklahoma City has surfaced? The stories I've been reading in the Oklahoma the past month all indicate MLS officials met with Tulsa officials BEFORE the meeting with Brad Lund/Express Sports. Tulsa's new mayor has only been in office since April. HELLO? Has MLS actually spoken to any local officials from OKC about this "Plan A" bricktown project? Based on the information and personal experiences I have had, Tulsa would be a better market for MLS. OKC has more potential as a MLS market in '04 or '06 than Tulsa did in'78 with the NASL. Youth soccer participation is very similar but Tulsa's youth soccer boom took place earlier and coincided with the arrival of the Roughnecks. Tulsa just can't seem to get any venues built and the private sector (with all of its oil money) isn't willing to privately fund a stadium and yet no immediate investors seem to come forward. TU recently got the Reynolds Center built... mayor LaFortune sounds much more positive about getting something built in Tulsa than mayor Humphries in OKC... Competition is good though, I would prefer that MLS goes to Tulsa first; because I believe that if Tulsa gets and team, Oklahoma City will eventually get one. I seriously doubt that 2 MLS teams in Oklahoma will happen in my lifetime. As you mentioned about soccer being the only sport in which Tulsa could support on the major league level--that's true, I look for Oklahoma City to have an NHL franchise after the 2004 CBA agreement. Yes, and if a possible I/O got a month's worth of press coverage out of the blue for a possible NHL franchise in Tulsa, would you accuse OKC officials of "blowing smoke" or being jealous of their "little sister to the north"?!?
Ah, I see. Some people in Tulsa took some acid, and now they think they should get an MLS team. Roughnecks and Sounders, the two expansion teams in 2004! Am I tripping? - Paul
Re: Re: The real motives behind Tulsa MLS drive... Originally posted by Mike Segroves All in All, I think both Tulsa and OKC are blowing some smoke, but from different angles. First off, Mike, get a copy of the Sunday Tulsa World and take a look at Sittler's MSL(?) article... I bought a copy at 7-Eleven... I believe the Tulsa group really didn't want to go public or "blow smoke" this early on but had to respond to the media buzz in OKC mentioning Tulsa... Tulsa has the history and favorable support in LaFortune, Tulsa CoC, etc. I'm sure they had a previous proposal to go by but it sounds like there'd been little/no follow up until last spring's meetings... LaFortune (and family) have private connections the previous mayor didn't have... What they don't have is a stadium site that is nailed down, the financing to build it, and/or an I/O to drop money for the stadium and team operations. This is still very early but the mayor has mentioned city-owned land in the Brady District that with private investors "could make lans for a $38 million stadium seating 22,000 to 25,000 a reality in time for the 2005 season." Oklahoma City has an interested I/O that has shown that they are a capable and competent Sports Marketing & Management Franchise (Express Sports) and a "Plan B" in the works which could easily become a "Plan A" if Tulsa drops the ball. Sounds like Edmond is Express's only hope right now... from Hunt's tone, I seriously doubt MLS would put up with sharing fall dates with 3 high schools and a D2 college... CCS gets revenue from those things while an Edmond franchise would have to "give it away." What they don't have is the political support that Tulsa enjoys, but do have a better history of supporting sports. I'd agree in every sport EXCEPT soccer... Tulsa wouldn't have much/any chance of an NHL or CBA/NBA team to steal the thunder from a MLS team in Edmond... Tulsa has history, OKC has market share. Those 2 factors cancel each other if you ask me. Ideally, if Mayor Humphries is dead set against this project, it won't happen in downtown OKC. There is a less than favorable history between the Mayor and Express Sports after the Mayor tried (unsuccesssfully) to court the now defunct KC Blades of the IHL to OKC as primary tenant to the newly constructed Ford Center believeing that people wanted "bigger league teams" to support. And we're back to Edmond as Espress Sports' "Plan A" Humphries has no authority over Fair Park. Sounds like this is a potential plan B -- or maybe C??? Advantages 4) Fairly close to USRufnex's house so he wouldn't have to bitch about driving to games. Actually, Taft Stadium is much closer, but you don't wanna hear me start bitchin' about that place... 7) Did I mention the livestock barns? Crewfans would feel right at home can't wait for the "buck-a-calf-fry" promotion... 8) Park is very close to airport and ample lodging really?... will they "leave the light on" for us? Given the sheer number of games played on such a stadium, I would assume that UCO and the I/O would share the cost of having the field resodded every season. If I were UCO and MLS wasn't involved, I'd make sure that part of the HS teams gate went to reinstalling the turf every late feb/early march. Sounds reasonable... but I think MLS wants a SSS and not a DSS so that it controls when high school/Div 2 games are played at the new stadium... I take I-35 out of Norman all the way to 2nd street every morning. There are four signals between I-35 and UCO Campus. (I-35 & 2nd, Coltrane & 2nd, Bryant & 2nd and then the street on the E Side of campus. 50 minutes max. I-35 is definitely do-able... the broadway extension is the road with all the stoplights. I like Romey. I figured there were more factors involved. You'd get a better gauge of fan support/frustration listening to AM740 KRMG. I'll bet ya' a shiny new quarter that John Ehrling interviews Mayor LaFortune a couple of mornings this week about it and all sorts of Tulsans start chiming in. Ehrling was around for the Roughnecks and that radio station used to broadcast all home games and even a few road games back in the day... I'd also have to wager that the message boards at krmg.com would start to have some threads on the stadium issue and a possible MLS franchise... The mayor and entourage have been to an all-star game, last Wed's game at Crew Stadium, and Sun night's game at Arrowhead... LaFortune is getting buddy-buddy with Hunt and has now attended more MLS games this summer than I have, dammit...
Dooohhhh.... For some reason I always forget that the fastest way to Edmond is I-35. I was thinking of the route via the Broadway Extension. Nevertheless, with all the expressways in OKC, I was hoping that a SSS could be built right next to a highway. We shall see how this all works out... In my opinion, resodding is not a solution. Sod laid down in early spring takes a long time to settle since the days aren't quite long enough and the sun is still low in the sky. Furthermore, the spring rains are sure to lengthen the amount of time for the new grass to take hold... Geez, Louise !! If that wasn't such a sick thought, it would be very funny. Stan
Actually, they don't cancel each other out. Enough demographic shifts have taken place during the past 15 years that make market share paramount in terms of determining where to expand, IMHO. History is nice but as the Fusion and Mutes showed, it's not a substitute for market share and deep-pocketed investors. Sachin
I'm in agreement! Tulsa is indeed rich is soccer history. Tulsans will proclaim that they averaged about 15,000 per game when they were a member of the NASL. Let's not forget Tulsa; Big Sis (Oklahoma City) has beaten you in every sport where both cities were on the same level: Baseball (AAA): Oklahoma City has outdrawn Tulsa. Basketball (CBA): Oklahoma City holds the CBA attendance record average at 5,200. Hockey (AA, AAA) Oklahoma City holds the CHL attendance record average at 10,438. Tulsa has had USFL football and the team averaged roughly 20,000 fans per game. The USFL originally tried to rent 75,000-seat Oklahoma Memorial Stadium (Norman) and was turned down and Tulsa was the alternative. Tulsa has had NASL soccer and the team's all time high was 19,787. The NASL had looked at Oklahoma City and couldn't find a suitable stadium. In summary, Oklahoma City and Tulsa are pretty much evenly matched: Market (Metropolitan & City Population) Oklahoma City.......... 1,083,346..... 506,132 Tulsa.......................... 803,235...... 393,049 Market (TV ranking by Nielsen) 45th .. Oklahoma City ..................... 623,760 59th .. Tulsa..................................... 502,500
Point taken. But I still will give Tulsa points for having big success in the NASL's smallest market... Tulsa's "market" still isn't that much smaller than OKC's, which I why I stand by my opinion that Tulsa's history makes up for OKC's slightly larger market... Metro population: OKC 1.1 million Tulsa 0.8 million Here are Nielsen rankings/TV households: 31. KC 849,730 households 37. San Antonio 710,030 45. Okla. City 623,760 53. Jacksonville 563,510 59. Tulsa 502,500 70. Des Moines/Ames, IA 404,910 71. Rochester 400,090 Youth soccer participation in OKC (particularly the suburbs of Edmond/Moore/Norman) has caught up with Tulsa's in the past decade. And you know as well as I do that MLS is fixated on a SSS. If OKC could build a 20K seater, then they should have a team. If Tulsa builds one, it should have a team. As for markets, I would argue that MLS has already tried that as 7 of its 10 teams are in the top 8 media markets: 1. New York 2. LA 3. Chicago 5. SJ/SF/Oak. 6. Boston 7. Dallas/Ft.W 8. DC aww, heck... let's finish it... 13. Tampa/St.Pete 16. Miami/Ft.L 18. Denver I'm obviously biased, but I would expect Tulsa (esp. if hometown boy Joe-Max Moore was in the mix) to have much better support/attendance at a new SSS than the other 2 bigger markets in our region-- Dallas and KC. As for OKC, I've said before that OKC has as much potential of being a success as an expansion team in '04 or '06 as Tulsa did in '78. Obviously, all 3 deep pocketed investors are MUCH appreciated. But if the league keeps getting 2nd (or 3rd) rate treatment in it's largest markets (the Fire get the same type of media coverage as the Chicago Wolves minor league hockey team) in oversized NFL stadiums, I don't see a very bright future for this league. Considering the treatment of teams as non-factors by their big city government officials (see Fire--Naperville), I find Tulsa Mayor LaFortune's enthusiasm refreshing. That enthusiasm I believe simply would not have been there if not for the Rufnex.
I'm sorry, I'm only keeping up with the conversation here and there. Who are "the Rufnex"? War MLS in Oklahoma!!
Just didn't feel like spelling out "the NASL's Tulsa Roughnecks-- '78 till the league died in '85"...
Actually, the Oklahoma Storm basketball team has never been and will never be an OKC team. It's always been from Enid. They played a few games in OKC just so people could see Kareem Abdul-Jabar but it's not going anywhere accept on road games from Enid.
Correction! Mike Segroves: The State Fair Park is owned by the City of Oklahoma City. The State Fair Board Trust under the umbrella of the City of Oklahoma City operates the State Fair Park complex, All (one) Sports Stadium is owned by the City of Oklahoma City! There has been talk of tearing down the old 10,000-seat Grand Stands at the Oklahoma State Fairgrounds. They don't have the stock car fan support they once enjoyed. Maybe this facility could be renovated, expanded and turned into a soccer specific stadium.
Re: Re: Blowing smoke! I know you're giving me a scenario of a publicity stunt; however, I don't think that's the case. The NHL isn't going to talk to you unless you have some kind of arena plan. Tulsa doesn't have a temporary facility in which an NHL team could play unless they played in OKC and until someone has some concrete plans about building a facility, I doubt very seriously if Tulsa would get any coverage "out of the blue" for a possible NHL franchise.
Thanks for a really great thread. It does appear at least plausible that the league/Hunt is using Tulsa as a foil to get OKC on the stick re a stadium. Seems like OKC has a lot more potential to build a soccer-specific stadium, but perhaps is getting bogged down a bit. Surely Kraft, Hunt and Anschutz don't really want to build all the stadiums themselves (a la the scuppered stadium deal in Dallas. When the suburb couldn't do it, that stadium was kaput.
Oklahoma City, no Soccer Specific Stadium? Tulsa, if they build a Soccer Specific Stadium? Tulsa, of course. Under no other circumstances do I want a renovated football stadium. Miami was a success story, but, MLS decided to cut their beautiful stadium and club... so, &*)#@ you, MLS. You're not going to cut one to add another. What happened to "making the right decisions", "taking it slow", "all markets in soccer-specifc stadia". Huh? Soccer-specifc-stadiums are the key to MLS long term survival. If I have to wait an extra two years to have two clubs with those kinds of stadia, I will.
Soccer Specific Stadium (SSS) usbfc: Under no other circumstances do I want a renovated football stadium. MLS isn't all that! What difference does it matter as long as the stadium meets MLS soccer specific requirements? I don't believe that Miami and Tampa Bay were doing that badly. I think they shelved those teams because of the league's geography moreso than the franchise operations in those cities themselves. I would think that there may be some a strong possibility that the league may return to Florida within the next 5-10 years once its regions become more established. The NHL returned to Atlanta and Denver.
Well you can say that to everyone here... and it could work... this is a site where opinions are floating around.. so why do you can't stand them???
exactly. each expansion possibilty should have plans for a stadium that the team controls. they control who plays there, when they play there and all that. We need more columbus and LA-like locations. Not more napervilles.
umm, you do realize that the only thing that makes naperville NOT the ideal is the pitch everything else about it is awesome if that was still a grass pitch, i would be screaming for the fire to get a long term deal (and to take out that track... they can do college track meets at one of the local highschools)
LOL. The "New"CHL is mostly players at the end of marginal careers or ones that never will make it to the NHL. The IHL was as the AHL is, a feeder league to the NHL. AAA hockey vs. A or AA hockey. The "New" CHL is a goon league.
Re: Re: Oklahoma City suburb prepares for MLS stadium bond vote. Agreed. I was taking exception you saying the quality of the CHL was equal to that of the IHL. OKC were wise to steer clear of Dan DeVos.
(including the inadequate length, the inadequate width, the lousy surface material, the many superflous lines, and the logos), and the restricted seating capacity, and the location, and the lack of parking, and the accessibility, and the restricted beverage choice, and the inadequate tv camera locations, and ...