Ok, Jordan Morris, is he the deal?

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by deuteronomy, Apr 16, 2015.

  1. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    I think if everybody is available, Morris isn't on the Gold Cup squad. Altidore, Johannsson, Rubin, Dempsey, and company are all ahead of him. One goal against Mexico doesn't vault him into being a USMNT contributor in important matches. Heck, I'd also have Agudelo ahead of him amongst others.

    He should be a contributor for our U23 team in their qualifying efforts. Of course we have actual professionals like Khiry Shelton and Rubio Rubin that should have something to say about that. It should be noted that he'll be the only non-professional on our U23s. Heck, our U20 national team has one non-professional in it, and that's the backup goalie (Caldwell of UVA).

    Seriously...............Morris is actually a year and a half older than Rubio Rubin who now has over 20 Eredevisie appearances (and multiple goals) under his belt. While Rubin has been playing against Ajax, Morris has been playing against the fightin' Blue Hens of Delaware. We've got players in our U20 team that have scored goals in Liga MX (Amando Moreno and Paul Arriola), that just made their debut at Reading (Novakovich), that are moving up the ranks at Atletico Madrid (Boxi Yomba), are on the books at Lille (Maki Tall), and the Galaxy (Bradford Jameison), etc. etc.....................................coming up FAST. They're all younger than Morris, and they're all professionals already. Heck, we've got forwards on our U17s that have just gone pro (Haji Wright and company). So while Morris is taking his econ classes, they'll be passing him by.
     
  2. Eleven Bravo

    Eleven Bravo Member+

    Atlanta United
    United States
    Jul 3, 2004
    SC
    Club:
    Atlanta Silverbacks
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Lol... I hear you. I'm not saying anything about him as a person, just the fact that his career decision doesn't seem to make a logical financial decision. And instead of repeating the same message twice, I'll just point to @Clint Eastwood response about college... If college is more important to him than playing soccer, so be it... I don't hate him for that.
     
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  3. Scotty

    Scotty Member+

    Dec 15, 1999
    Toscana
    And I wouldn't bet the ranch on him suddenly becoming a two-footed player past the age of 20 either...
     
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  4. Eleven Bravo

    Eleven Bravo Member+

    Atlanta United
    United States
    Jul 3, 2004
    SC
    Club:
    Atlanta Silverbacks
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    On a different note, as I echo what would probably be the general consensus that he needs to decide if he wants to be a pro soccer player or not... And Klinsy needs to not call him up until then.

    I do believe a major change MLS needs to make is offering college scholarships to youth players. We are seeing this with the Galaxy now, who are being pioneers in this area.

    For instance, an 18 year old kid signs with a MLS team; they probably may want to loan him to their USL team, and the player receives tuition assistance and a living stipend as part of his contract with the club for him to be able to earn his degree while also training in a professional environment. Ultimately, the player wins both ways in that, he is getting his college paid for, and he is being developed to be a pro soccer player.
     
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  5. comoesa

    comoesa Member+

    Aug 13, 2010
    Christen Press's armpit
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Rare to see my alma mater get a shout on BS...or well anywhere :D
     
  6. comoesa

    comoesa Member+

    Aug 13, 2010
    Christen Press's armpit
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No, fitness is not the same in college as it is in the pro's. We are assuming Morris would be challenging for a starting spot not a squad player on a pro team.
     
  7. usry723

    usry723 Member+

    Aug 14, 2008
    Georgia, USA
    Club:
    Atlanta
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  8. LuckofLichaj

    LuckofLichaj Member+

    Mar 9, 2012
    Yet the chances of any of those professionals passing Clint Dempsey's USMNT legacy is somewhere between 5 and 10 percent. A player is a player, regardless. I wish Morris was a pro and I'm not totally convinced that he's the future, but maybe a guy who fits in so easily WITHOUT optimal training should be regarded pretty highly.
     
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  9. naopon

    naopon Member+

    Jan 2, 2007
    California
    Club:
    Kawasaki Frontale
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Sure. But the likes of Altidore/Dempsey may stay with their clubs for the Gold Cup group stage and make room for an Ibarra or a Morris. They can rotate up to 6 players during the tournament and you can bet Klinsmann will work in some of his favorite youngsters - Green, Zelalem should be in the mix as well.
     
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  10. jond

    jond Member+

    Sep 28, 2010
    Club:
    Levski Sofia
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #110 jond, Apr 17, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2015
    You're contradicting yourself in all of this. On one hand you're saying if Sea didn't lowball him and gave him a better offer, he might be a pro with the Sounders right now. That might be the case. On the other hand, you're really going in on the kid for not being pro and being fully committed to the game while suggesting he had "pro offers" on the table he turned down.

    Which "offers", concentrating on plural here, did he have? I know you understand the MLS player acquisition rules but you appear to be ignoring some of the issues here. MLS doesn't allow him to consider offers from any MLS team where he might have gotten a higher offer. No, he was forced to consider one offer, Sea's, an apparent lowball offer. He didn't have LAG and RSL and FCD all after his signature offering him good money and rejected the offers across the table. If that were the scenario, then you can fault him more for returning to Stanford. But when MLS doesn't offer any of those options and presents a take it or leave it lowball offer with a single team, you're basically blaming him for not taking that one lowball offer. MLS shoe-horns prospects into these single take it or leave it suppressed offers and you're going off the rails because he decided to leave his options open for another year? This is more an issue with MLS' ridiculous player acquisition system than it is about Morris returning to Stanford for a year.

    Then we get to the presumption that he'd clearly be better of signing away four years and playing for Sea. There's no guarantee of that, it's not that black and white. If being in an MLS pro setup was clearly better, we'd have a number of MLS forwards who are 20 yrs old who are better than Morris but I can't point to one. Not a single one who's USA eligible. The two top 21 yr old American strikers in MLS are arguably Porter and Shelton, also NCAA prospects and a year older.

    What did leaving the door open to other options rather than taking the lowball take it or leave it offer from Sea accomplish? Well this summer only a few months from now he likely has a number of option. He'll only have one in MLS, Sea, given the stupid rules but he'll have options abroad. He'll be free. His value is increasing due to his choice. It's always good to give yourself more options before signing away the next four years of your career.

    But you're acting like last summer he was some hot commodity who had numerous pro offers presented and turned them down to return. He didn't. He had one lowball offer. And now, this summer, he will have other options. But to go in on the kid for not accepting being shoe-horned into a single lowball offer from Sea/MLS is quite ridiculous. You should be more concerned with why Sea didn't offer more or why other MLS teams couldn't offer him contracts due to our system. And as it is, Sea will likely have to increase their offer compared to whatever they previously offered. This is the same team which was paying Yedlin all of 91K/Y while he was rocking the WC in Brasil after all. How many players in Brasil had the WC Yedlin did while making under 100K/Y? What Morris is doing is using our system against MLS and likely will come out on top. But in general your argument would hold more weight if our system was more akin to what you see abroad than here, ya know, competition for signatures which MLS is deathly afraid of.
     
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  11. jond

    jond Member+

    Sep 28, 2010
    Club:
    Levski Sofia
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    In general, it's on MLS to prove they're the better option through development track record of attacking players, and they haven't. The number of youth players bypassing MLS shows the lack of confidence in our system. Add lowball offers to the equation and you'll begin seeing the problem on top of a lack of choices/options.

    And frankly, I don't see all this young striker talent in MLS clearly benefiting from signing as pros who are capable of the touch he took and nutmegging the GK in front of 60K+ in USA/Mex. Even a guy like Nguyen looked a fair amount more pedestrian than Morris in the mins he received in Jan and he's considered one of the top MLS vets. Zardes doesn't look any better than Morris either despite being a pro and regular starter for the champs. So...

    I mean, if MLS had a development track record like Ered or Bund or Ligue 1 clubs and Jordan turned down multiple offers, he's a fool, but that's hardly our current situation. SeaII is supposed to be more attractive than what he's doing right now and the options he'll have this summer? If you say so...
     
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  12. Spursfan1

    Spursfan1 Member+

    Sep 7, 2010
    Atlanta
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree.

    As was said many times....this was also a camp for potential Olympic players. Morris is definitely one of those. We were missing multiple forwards and Agudelo just came back.

    I see nothing wrong with giving him a chance.
     
  13. Deep Wilcox

    Deep Wilcox BigSoccer Supporter

    Jun 5, 2007
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This. He is at Stanford. He is obviously a smart and talented kid. He might be an okay MLS prospect, but let's be real; he isn't Thierry Henry. Like any smart kid, he is weighing his options, and has elected to stay at Stanford. He'd probably leave if MLS offered him $6 million a year. That isn't going to happen.
     
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  14. scoachd1

    scoachd1 Member+

    Jun 2, 2004
    Southern California
    Andrew Luck did the same thing. Many people consider him to be a once a decade type player. Only a complete fool would avoided him because he "lacked ambition" for staying in school. Similarly John Elway played baseball for the Yankees instead of practicing more football. Only a complete fool would have ignored him because he lacked the ambition to focus all his efforts on football. Of the things that are truly important: willingness to put practice, willingness to focus in practice, willingness to take eat correctly, willingness to sleep correctly, willingness to put in effort to keep fit, determination to overcome obstacles and setbacks, the question of whether a kid wants to play another year in college is so far down the list of what I think determines ambition only a fool would use that as a primary basis for decision making. I've known some kids that have little work ethic in academics to have a great work ethic on the athletic field, but far more often than not, the two are highly correlated.
    By your definition Zardes lacked ambition because he stayed another year at Bakersfield. Meanwhile from what I've read his teammates and coaches are always mentioning his work ethic. This me says he has a lot more ambition than a lot of other Galaxy kids that signed pro contracts at a younger age. Only a fool would believe kids that signed contracts at a younger age are more ambitious.
     
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  15. scoachd1

    scoachd1 Member+

    Jun 2, 2004
    Southern California
    You have some reasonable arguments, but not that much of a clue how the real world works. That "low paying" 42K job might an entry level job in capital hill that will turn into a contacts for 7 figure contracts. Bill Bennett argues much the same in terms of ROI of a college education. But he understands the truly elite places Harvard, Princeton, Stanford, Duke are well worth it. Furthermore, because they have massive endowments, the cost to attend is often less than public schools.
     
  16. scoachd1

    scoachd1 Member+

    Jun 2, 2004
    Southern California
    Want to make some bets on where whether Rubio Ruben, Amando Moreno, Paul Arriola and Bradford Jamison are going to be in 5 years as compared to Morris assuming all stay healthy?
     
  17. scoachd1

    scoachd1 Member+

    Jun 2, 2004
    Southern California
    Please do explain. How is a low 30's on the beep test any different at the national team level than the U18 academy level?
     
  18. scoachd1

    scoachd1 Member+

    Jun 2, 2004
    Southern California
    This is the pro fairy dust theory that has been prevalent on BS despite all kinds of evidence from Bradenton, project 40, Academy and early home grown signings. An interesting comparison will be with Aaron Kovar who left after two years. He was the Pac-12 conference freshman of the year (Roldan beat out Morris) and left Stanford after his sophomore year. Did his year in Seattle as a low paid pro catapult him to a much higher orbit? Does he appear to be significantly ahead of where he would have been by staying another year?

    The big question is whether signing abroad (which can be very dicey) would be worth the risk. I don't think it is. Without a doubt he'd picking up more nuances of how to play than his current environment. On the other hand the guy that signed him might get fired and he might end up buried by some guy that doesn't like him for what ever reason. In contrast he knows the he will get plenty of playing time in a reasonable good league and plenty of youth nats (and as it turns out senior nats) games and practices. As you suggest, the kid seems to have made a pretty smart move from my point of view by not signing with Seattle last year.
     
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  19. Dignan

    Dignan Member+

    Nov 29, 1999
    Granada
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yup.

    Absolutely no one is saying that the kid isn't talented and doesn't have potential.

    It is just unless he gets into a pro situation soon, he will get passed by by plenty of options. Plus how long will the pro guys on the team put up with it, and how long can JK go against his stated policy of guys having to be pros and pushing themelves at the highest level?
     
  20. Dignan

    Dignan Member+

    Nov 29, 1999
    Granada
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I wouldn't be surprised is he signs with MLS or a Euro team during the summer.
     
  21. Hararea

    Hararea Member+

    Jan 21, 2005
    At some point, I wonder if BSers will look back at all of the Quarantas and Szetelas and Agbossoumondes, as well as countless lesser-known washouts, and stop for a second to think that maybe young men shouldn't leap into pro soccer until they're good and ready for it.

    Eddie Gaven played his last game at age 26. He was making hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, yet he was so sick of it that he quit. Perhaps instead of rushing things early on, he should've taken the time to enjoy himself a bit more.
     
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  22. deuteronomy

    deuteronomy Member+

    Angkor Siem Reap FC
    United States
    Aug 12, 2008
    at the pitch
    Club:
    Siem Reap Angkor FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah, perspective. .

    He doesn't need to jump into the rat race until he's ready. He'll know when the time is right
     
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  23. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    #123 Clint Eastwood, Apr 18, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2015
    Sure. But for every Quaranta, Szetela, and Agbossoumonde......................we can also point to Donovan, Beasley, Bradley, Howard, Jozy, etc. etc. amongst the success stories in this career route. I'm sure we could also point to a whole host of failed prospects that went the NCAA route.

    People who talk soccer with me on these boards a lot know that I have no problem with NCAA soccer. Its a great decision for >95% of our prospects. But we're talking about one of our "elite of the elite" prospects here. A 1%er. For instance I would never make these comments about Jordan's Stanford teammate and U20 pool player Corey Baird.

    Not only are our U23 and U20 teams all professional (other than backup keepers on our U20 team), but we're now at a point where a large portion of our U18 team is professional (Ben Swanson of Columbus, Colin Fernandez of Chicago, Mukwelle Akale of Villarreal, Coy Craft of FCD, and on and on). I can't fathom the notion that people are so accepting of one of our elite prospects staying at Stanford after he's already shown he's capable of playing at a much, much, much, much higher level. I want to re-iterate that I have no problem with a bloke choosing to stay and study at Stanford. No problem at all. It just means he shouldn't be anywhere near the USMNT.

    The argument isn't just about where he'll be compared to those players and American contemporaries (who he actually is older than, so not really contemporaries). Where will he be compared to similar prospects in Spain, Germany, Argentina, etc? Jordan Morris is older than Raheem Sterling and players of that ilk that are excelling and advancing in club football. He's older than Munir el Haddadi, the Barca forward that was just called up to the Spanish national team. Again.............I wouldn't be making this argument for 99% of the young players in our pool. We're not talking about a 17 year old prospect here. He's already 20. Time to get going.
     
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  24. Dr. Gamera

    Dr. Gamera Member+

    Oct 13, 2005
    Wheaton, Maryland
    #124 Dr. Gamera, Apr 18, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2015
    College football is a poor analogy for college soccer. Andrew Luck's development in college football was under the tutelage of JIM HARBAUGH and his protégé David Shaw. I'm sure Jeremy Gunn is a solid coach for Stanford, but he's no Pep Guardiola -- he isn't even Bob Bradley.

    A better argument might be that Dr. Michael Morris has the connections to enable extracurricular athletic development in the same way that Oliver Luck did.

    John Elway's baseball career is, again, a poor analogy for Jordan Morris's academic career. Elway was legitimately developing into a world-class baseball player: George Steinbrenner planned to make him the Yankees' starting right fielder by 1985. Elway's professional baseball options also provided significant leverage in the selection of his NFL team. Morris is no Academic All-American -- he hasn't even chosen a major. Edited to correct: ah, I see that freshmen and sophomores don't typically declare majors at Stanford. A better statement might be that Morris doesn't have any journal publications yet, which is roughly the equivalent level of Elway's baseball career.

    I've said before that players' life choices are beyond the scope of USA Men: News & Analysis. There are plenty of possible personal reasons that Morris may have for staying at Stanford. If, however, his priority is to be the best soccer player possible, the argument that he should leave Stanford seems to be compelling.
     
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  25. Eleven Bravo

    Eleven Bravo Member+

    Atlanta United
    United States
    Jul 3, 2004
    SC
    Club:
    Atlanta Silverbacks
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    We may just have to agree to disagree on how the "real world" works...

    You're just speculating that a Stanford degree making 42k automatically lands someone a try out for a 7 figure contract job. The people who earn those jobs, don't just "walk into them" because of the name of the degree. Not everyone who goes to Stanford comes out a millionaire nor does someone who attend a "lesser" university, limited. There are some obvious benefits of networking at Stanford, but not everyone who goes to Harvard becomes Mark Zuckerberg either. Moreover, there is no age limit on when he could return to Stanford, while there is a certain time frame on his soccer career. Ultimately, meaning - it would be in his best career interest, to actually know what he wants to do, before he does it.

    Right now, for Morris, the benefit of a Stanford degree over a soccer career is an emotional one, not a financial one. If he is not interested in continuing his soccer career though; that's fine. He certainly would not be the first, and I wish him well. But, staying on the fence, when he is not burning any bridges with his education, will not only hurt his soccer career; but it will not help him find the career direction he needs when choosing a major at Stanford.

    So, if he wants to work on "capital hill" making 7 figures, he better focus on that education and make that his goal because that money is not going to be guaranteed to him...Otherwise, that Stanford degree is just going to make for a pretty plaque on his wall.
     

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