Ok, Jordan Morris, is he the deal?

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by deuteronomy, Apr 16, 2015.

  1. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well they have a good history with American players.
     
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  2. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    I’ve always thought MLS was the best fit for Morris - I doubt that his game will improve that much even if he moved to the majors and won playing time. Kudos to him for maximizing his opportunity.
     
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  3. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    Morris's game improved significantly in MLS. There's no reason to believe a top-5 league couldn't have done the same or better for him.
     
  4. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Except that he is more important to Seattle than he could be to any other club. In Seattle, he's a local hero. In Germany, he was a fast American kid with a questionable first touch. Seattle gave him a lot of time and chances both before and after the injury (and he took advantage and this year was very impressive). Would Bremen have been as invested, or would they have thought, American with an injury problem, bought that shirt before, time to move on.
     
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  5. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    He's also was a young man with a very serious disease that needs to be carefully managed. Doing that at home with food he's familiar with is a heck of a lot easier.

    IIRC, Sounders offered him a bit more than Bremen and he was likely to get the benefit of the doubt there.

    In the end, I thought (and think) that his ceiling as an attacker was pretty limited and wasn't far above MLS. Given his older age and short shelf life for speed oriented attackers, he would be better in MLS. He's right at or above my ceiling for him and he deserves a ton of credit (as do the Sounders).
     
  6. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    The beauty of a contract is it gives a player an opportunity and security to recover.

    If J-Mo could put in 15 goals in a top-5 league league then he would be more valuable there than in Seattle.
     
  7. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Wait, so he could have been more productive in the Bundesliga than in MLS? Why stop at 15? If he'd scored 77 for Barcelona he would be the new Messi. The player he was straight from Stanford was going to struggle, a lot, to play in the Bundesliga, Now, that struggle might have forced him to improve, but it likely would have been outside of a US nats context, as not playing for club doesn't often translate well to national opportunities. As it was, he improved and played, and that seems a happier way to go about things
     
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  8. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    Let's break this down for clarity--

    This was your statement
    He would not be more valuable to Seattle if he were scoring at a decent rate in a top-5. That's basic economics. 15 goals isn't a spectacular number across all competitions, and he wouldn't even have to score at that clip to be worth more in Europe. Bobby Wood was on $3 million per year.

    .
    That's baseless speculation on your part. Morris trialed for Bremen. Liking what they saw, they offered him contract. This wasn't a speculative youth team deal.
     
  9. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Bremen offered him a squad player level deal. and while it is speculation: 1. that's what we do on here and 2. that bundesliga players are not given the opportunity to play through their weak spots is well established.
    Depth of quality is an obvious weakness of MLS compared to the big 5 leagues. Morris was offered, "hey, nice that you could join us" money, not "verily, the Sun and stars revolve around you and you bring us life" money. His signing wouldn't have affected their pursuit of other options, at all.
    Seattle needed for him to take a number of minutes that Bremen was never going to guarantee. Bremen was interested. Seattle was obsessed.
    Also, my first point was referring to your 15 goal Bundesliga season notion, which is a goal more than he has so far managed in an MLS season. Given that the other part of your argument is that he would have improved more quickly in the higher qualilty Bund, how does this make any sense?
    Fifteen goals actually is a spectacular return for a goalscorer in the first bund, at least for anyone not named Lewandowski. If he'd come out of Stanford scoring 15 for Bremen he would have been topping Bremen's scoring charts, and in most of the seasons since he became a pro, would have been among the top 5 scorers in the league. i know you tossed in the "all comps" thing to make it look better, but how many was he hitting for in 1-3 Pokal matches? As for 15 goals not being spectacular in the Bund, ask Wood, who is on 3m euro a year, how easy that is.
    After asking him that, ask him if the size of his contract assures him of playing time.
    Your argument is that if he'd come out of college and become an immediate superstar in the bundesliga. he'd be more valuable. So, I suggested that as you're wondering how much he'd be worth as that player, why stop there?
     
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  10. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    15 goals across all competitions is not spectacular. Bobby Wood had 9. Was he remotely spectacular?

    Bremen offered Morris a senior professional deal.

    What is there to suggest Seattle were obsessed? That's just a silly characterization.

    Josh Sargent is getting minutes at Bremen. Josh Sargent is not a better player than Morris.
     
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  11. jond

    jond Member+

    Sep 28, 2010
    Club:
    Levski Sofia
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Majority of players will improve if playing weekly at a higher tempo with less time on the ball. It forces quicker thinking and execution.
     
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  12. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    I think they’re pretty close now and Sargent has much higher upside IMO. I’m generally one for having our most talented players push themselves vs. higher levels but I think that Morris isn’t our most talented (which makes his success even more special IMO - a throwback to prior USMNT players that I admire).

    wrt woods, did he score 9 in B1 level or b2? My memory is that he didn’t do so well in B1 due to injury and lack of service.
     
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  13. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    Given this season was his first season after a major injury, Morris likely has another level or two he can go through.

    Wood had 9 across all comps, in a season, while in the B1.

    Sargent has a ways to go, and I'd go with Mason Toye as having more upside.
     
  14. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Wood was coming off a 17 goal B2 season, when he was the talk of Germany. I can see that you aren't at all impressed with Woods 9 goals in all comps first year in the Bund. Hamburg was impressed enough that they renegotiated his contract and bumped him up a million a year, to their lasting shame. Still, that would seem to say that 9 goals is a pretty big deal. Yeah, 15 would be spectacular. This isn't a logical reach. There have been two years since Morris has been a pro when the top scorer in the Bund has finished with 19 and 20 goals.
    Seattle began the hype train on Jordan the second he was signed. Obsessed may be the wrong wrod, but it's not far off.
    Also, I don't see what has to do with Morris, but Sargent is significantly younger, now, than Morris when he finished college. In addition, he's already been in the system for a year. A promising Sargent at 18 is competely different from a 25 year old Morris, and quite different still from a 22 year old Morris.
    I am a Morris fan, but the evidence suggests he's done quite well on the path he chose, and there is no evidence to suggest he'd be better off in a different environment.
     
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  15. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    A hypothetical season 9 goals in B1 plus 6 in Pokal. We'll have to agree to disagree on whether that's 'spectacular'.

    What would constitute 'evidence' that Morris would be better off in a different environment?

    Sargent is an inferior player to Morris, yet has 4 goals and 3 assists in 10 games worth of minutes in the B1 and Pokal. That would suggest Morris could bang 'em in the B1. Could also suggest Sargent is the better player. But they've player together at international level. He ain't. It's just like when McKennie was getting minutes in the B1 while Adams was still in MLS. When they finally played together in central midfield, it became obvious who the better player was.
     
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  16. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    So now he's a top scorer in a Pokal? Those are Lewandowski numbers you ascribe to him. Yeah, if he could score like Lewandowski, he'd be valued. Haller scored 9 goals for EF and was subject of a 40m euro transfer. Chelsea is lining up a 100m pound move for Jadon Sancho, and he failed to meet your toss off standard. Pulisic never got close to a 15 goal season here, and he was considered a star.
    So this is my point: Asserting that if Morris played like a superstar in Germany he would then be well thought of isn't much of an argument.
    There is no logical way to casually dismiss that sort of goal return. It's going to put him among the top 20 scorers in every season and top 10 in some off years.
    If Morris popped in your goal totals he would be a star in this league. Those are lofty ambitions, and they represent scoring a rate slightly higher than what he's been able to achieve in MLS. If that is the case, if it is easier, or at least no more difficult, to beat Bund defenses than MLS defenses, than what is the point of insisting Morris needs to move to improve?
    On Morris v Sargent, you're taking the transitive property to an absurd conclusion. There are way more variables at play than A and B. And Adams success, attained in MLS, works against the premise that Morris needs to be in the Bund.
     
  17. Stan Collins

    Stan Collins Member+

    Feb 26, 1999
    Silver Spring, MD
    I believe he was the highest selling US player on the jersey sales list again this year, and that's coming off a year lost to injury.
     
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  18. KALM

    KALM Member+

    Oct 6, 2006
    Boston/Providence
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  19. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    Seattle fans must adore him.
     
  20. thedukeofsoccer

    thedukeofsoccer Member+

    Jul 11, 2004
    Wussconsin
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The Kleibans are as toxic to US soccer as the fed they nominally oppose. Dragging a dude who came back from a knee injury and did nothing but perform for club and country this season, disingenuously claiming he's not fit for the int'l game in spite of it. It's simply because they don't represent him and he didn't follow their one-size-fits-all prescribed path.

     
  21. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    I hate the ambiguous "international" garbage. Are the scrubs who knocked the USMNT out in couva international quality? Is the MLS bench forward that scored 2x against the US in the Hex international quality?


    We need to put the best performers on the field. I don't care if they are playing in the Dutch second division or MLS.
     
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  22. An Unpaved Road

    An Unpaved Road Member+

    Mar 22, 2006
    Club:
    --other--
    I guess Morris needs to produce in a World Cup before his contributions count. Kind of weird. CP for instance can have poor showings in the Nations League and miss NT games because of injury and still be automatically lauded for his NT standing.
     
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  23. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    Yeah. WTF is someone involved with players in the USMNT setup doing slagging a player publicly?

    It's bad when a family member/friend does it anonymously on BS (looking at you @futbal nut), it's worse when the coach's son does it, it's much worse when an agent does it (like this), even worse when arguably the best field player of all time does it and it's worst of all when a former (and future) coach does it.

    Morris is the only player who is anywhere near his ceiling as a player - he's an auto-call up and IMO a lock starter while he continues his bender (long may it continue).
     
  24. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    LA Galaxy
    United States
    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Morris seems to illustrate the old saw that some people would never be happy no matter what you do for them.

    At some stage as we mature as a soccer nation, people will start to understand that a run of good form doesn't have to be denied. For heaven's sake, just enjoy it while it lasts. You're going to miss it a lot in Qatar.
     
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  25. nobody

    nobody Member+

    Jun 20, 2000
    Morris has been playing very well for the US team over the past year so you keep him on the field and if he ever dips in form, like some seem worried will happen, then you replace him with a better option when it comes around. But, for me, as long as he keeps playing well and producing you keep him on the field. It's really not more complicated than that. The whole theorizing about how good he would or wouldn't be if he went elsewhere is nothing more than pure speculation. There's no way to know. But, as is, he's playing well and looks like one of our more effective wing players.

    The real test will be when Weah gets healthy and there's some actual competition for the one open wing spot, assuming Pulisic has one locked down. I'd be quite happy if they both had strong years in 2020 so that we have some real competition for a spot and instead of picking between the lesser of two evils, as is so often the case, we could actually pick between two very good players each making a strong case.
     
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