Attacking Player B is in an offside position, in behind the 2nd last defender. Attacking Player A trying to pass to Player B miss hits a poor through ball and it rolls to the 2nd last defender in a nice lazy easy fashion. THe AR holds the flag down as the Defender pounces on it and trys to smack it 1st time touch down field but slices it so ugly off his foot and darn if it does not go to Player B. Up pops the flag? OFFSIDE! Or Wave it off?
The image I have from your description is that the defender did not truly play the ball (possession & control), so the attacker is guilty of the offside infraction.
If B plays the ball received from the defender, he is taking advantage of his offside position. If B moves away from the ball to remove himself from the play - no flag.
I would look carefully at the play to the defender's play or non-play of the ball as well as the OSP attacker's possible involement. If in my opinion, even if it was misplayed soley by the defender, it was played, nevertheless, and since it was not played by a teammate of the attacker in an OSP, there could be no infringement of Law 11. If, on the other hand, it was not played, and was only deflected, rebounded or touched, and then the OSP attacker became involved, then you blow the whistle. It is interesting that this should come up. Earlier this week I had some questions on an offside call I made in an ISL game where an attacker inthe goal area in an OSP interferred with a defender heading a cross. The very short attacker, realizing they were offside, made no attempt to play the cross, however the considerably taller defender when he tried to position himself to head it out, stumbled over the attacker, and the ball misplayed over the goal line. The coach did not understand why his team did not get the corner, since it clearly went off the defender's head, or even a PK since the defender ended up falling on top of the OSP attacker. He did, however, settle down when I explained that a player in an offside infraction, can become unintentinoally involved and that once this had occurred, play was in effect stopped so the restart in any event would have been the IFK for the defense. If I had felt that the defender had been reckless I might have given a caution, but it still would not have been a PK.
Offside is called at the the time the ball is played by the attacker. So, even if the defender played the ball perfectly, the AR should have raised the flag at the time the ball was initally passed forward. A similar situation occured a few years back with the brand new Tenwa Bonseu (sp?) of the Fire in a playoff game.
First, I'll give my slant on the original situation -- clearly attacker B was in an offside position. My question is why did the defender play the ball so poorly. If you think that he played the ball so poorly because he realized he had an attacker in close proximity (attacker B) and he better get it out of that area, then I'd argue that attacker B was or became involved in play and therefore, the offside should have been signaled. However, if he was able to take possession, away from and without pressure from attacker B, then we have a new snapshot. Attacker B is no longer considered offside now that the defense has "possession". At this point a pass by the defense that goes to attacker B should not result in offside being called. I disagree with this -- as you might guess from my answer above. The offside only exists until the next "play" in the game. That may be another pass by a different attacker and it may be possession and play by a defender. If it is possession and play by a defender, no offside exists. Just look at Landon's goal against Portugal.
Absolutely disagree. You don't want to wave the flag, unless there is something you want the CR to act upon. It hadn't happened yet. The important question is how involved was the offside player in the play of the defender and whether the defender had ample opportunity to properly clear the ball. It's the CR's decision, based on the answers to those issues.
I thought that a player was considered offside if the fact that he was in the offside position gave him an advantage in the case of a defensive mistake.
If the defender clears properly, you don't want the flag up in the air. If you're not sure, you wait. An incorrect early flag causes more problems than a late flag. Soccertim, your statement is correct. It's a question of when or if it gets signalled.
A defensive mistake is FAR different than a deflection or another touch. A mistake impilies directly that it is his fault. THe criteria for determining when an offside player can become on side for this senario is did the defender have control? Pressure to perform the clearence if we felt the defender was hurried then perhaps we could say control was never achieved thus it will be yes to the offside. The skill level might play a part but I am sure most of us on a nice easy lazy ball could smack it pretty good out of harms way. AS it is a first touch do we automatically feel obligated to call the miss hit off the foot a deflection and not a controled mistake? We might feel better if the defender stopped and then tried to clear it? Or knocked it ahead a bit and chased it. The centeral issue for me if the defender was unhindered , no one was close enough i.e. in playing distance, THe offside player was not trying to close this defender down but the recipeant of a first time clearance gone sour is it offside in your opinion? My take is no, the control requirements were met based on the skill of the player, the fact no other players were there to contest posession ample time to do with it as he wished.
What if a defender passes it back to the goalie but an attacking player (who was in an offside position, but not noticed by the defender) steals the pass? He definitely used the fact that he was in an offside position to gain an advantage. Would the play be onside because the opposing team made the backward pass?
No offside I agree with Grizzlierbear. Touching the ball and control are two distinct things. A deflection is not control and the offside consideration would still be in effect. It is also possible to have control of the ball without touching it (shielding the ball to allow it to roll out for a goal kick, for example). A couple of years back, had a coach who argued about this on a forum. His team had the ingenious ploy of turning offside calls into quick restarts and wanted offside calls whenever his team could get them. On one play, four opposing players were caught by the offside trap at the midline and stopped their runs immediately as the ball rolled to a stop in front of the keeper about 10 yards outside of the penalty area. Since her team wanted the offside call, the keeper waited, without touching the ball in front of her, for the opposing attackers to decide it was time to challenge for the ball. After about a second, all four attackers did come after the ball and the keeper, still not having touched the ball, let them steal the ball and score as she pleaded to the AR and CR for the offside call. No such luck, and little sympathy for the brain-dead ploy except from the coach, who was adamant the referee misapplied the offside law.
Interesting discussion, In England we would generally be looking for a late flag for offside if inside a couple of seconds the defender lost possession to the attacker. The important thing to learn for these situations is the "Phases of play" which we are very alert to nowadays. Firstly when the attacker plays the ball we all agree that the player was in an offside position. Now LOAF does not say weather or not the player quickly becomes onside as soon as the defender touches the ball and we must remeber that LOAF does not use "Possession or Control" in LAW11 it states Last "touched or played" by a team mate. It is up to each individual to decide when the player becomes no longer offside. But I would impress this . "Did the player gain an advantage by being in that position." I think we can all agree that he did and in this case I would appreaciate a late flag from my AR. Even if the defender had control of the ball I would still suggest that the attacker gained an advantage by being in the offside position. If the defender gains possession and the offside player starts to run after the defender then you should raise your flag and then the referee has the option of playing advantage or giving the offside if the defender fluffs up. Cus, You state that offside is called at the moment the ball is played. That is incorrect "Offside" is judged at the moment the ball is played but the signal for it should be delayed untill such time as it is needed. Keep Smiling Dodgy ref
Dodgy, I can't completely agree with your statements here... If the defender has possession and the attacker (from an offside position) starts pressuring the defender, yes, I agree with you that should be offside and the AR should raise the late flag. However, if the defender has possession and decides to play it back to his keeper -- into the path of the attacker who was in an offside position, then that is a new play. As long as the attacker in the offside position doesn't get involved in the ORIGINAL play (i.e., pressure the defender at the time he/she gained possession), then once the defender has gained possession, it is now a new play (or phase of play in your terms). If at that time, he/she plays it back to the keeper and the attacker in the offside position intercepts that pass, that attacker should not be flagged for offside as it was last played by the defense, not a teammate.
I would call offside. The ATR states: "Gaining an advantage" means being near enough to the play to capitalize immediately on a defender’s mistake, having gained the advantage solely by being in the offside position. It is most often seen in situations where the ball rebounds from the crossbar, goalposts, or keeper (whose contact with the ball is not controlled). If the defender goes to play the ball and screws up, that is a mistake. Player B uses his offside position to gain an advantage from the mistake of his opponent, and thus the call would need to be made. The ATR also states: "Interfering with play" means moving towards the opponent or the ball and thereby affecting how play develops. It is not necessary for a player to make contact with the ball or with an opponent to be judged as interfering with play. If Player B makes a move for the ball from the offside position before it reaches his opponent, he needs to be flagged for offside. However, if Player B only starts making a move to pressure the defender after he has established control, there is no more offside infringement.
The point is that if the defender does make an intervening play on the ball (gaining possession and control) the potential offside situation is terminated.
Exactly. That's what I said in the beginning of this thread. Dodgy seemed to be saying that possession & control by the defender wouldn't be relevent.
To an extent I am saying this. in the example lets say the attacker plays the ball to the offside player...OK its intercepted so the AR does not need to put his flag up. Now that split second does not now mean a new phase of play has started (IMHO). We should allow 2/3 seconds to let the situation develop and make sure the defender has cleared the ball up field. I liken this to the assistant flagging for an offside when the refere has missed it the AR may hold his flag for 10 seconds before it is seen or the defending team has cleared the ball to safety. The point I was making about "Gaining an advantage" is that is what Law11 states it is not relevant weather the defender plays the ball imeadiately or in a couple of seconds the point is that the player was offside at the origional point and he gained an advantage by being offside, we were happy to allow the defender to have possession but after a couple of seconds the "advantage" (I know we can go the APO and Law12 thread but lets not) did not accrue so penalise the offside. There is undoubtably a time when it is wrong for the AR to flag the offside but I think the onus is on the AR to flag it. Its the old chestnut of better to give a dodgy offside then to award a goal from a dodgy offside. Keep Smiling Dodgy Ref
Re: No offside Actually, the ref completely missed this call. Since the attackers were in an offside position when the ball was played, they are still offside, even if they run back to a onside position first. Offside is judged when the ball is played. Another missed offside call is a play receiving a ball in an onside position when they were in an offside position when the ball was played. Call: OFFSIDE.
This is exactly the point I was hoping would be raised. The essense of all this is a "touch" by a defender only nullifies an attackers offside if that touch is control and thus posession. My original point of asking the initial question was to clarify this idea. Dodgy's idea of waiting two or three seconds much like waiting to see if an advantage turns out is not how I see LAW 11 interpreted. I agree to a point but I want to consider a ball last touched by an onside attacker, the offside attacker may not have been the suppossed recipent of a pass in fact he could be on the opposing side of the FOP. Now the defender picks up this errant last touch by the attacker in a manner of no pressure by anyone the ball is gently rolling to him nearly stopped not another player within twenty yards. The defender now has in my opinion achieved posession but the ball is now say stopped rolling the other attackers expecting a long clearance have retreated waiting for one. The defender steps up and whiffles one across the field into the path of the offside attacker who says thank you and proceeds to the goal. Now the ball was last touched by a defender so the offside criteria is not applicable IF we are convinced the defender had control when he choose to kick it. Are we in effect punishing an attacker for a poor defender's skill or is he under the law gaining an advantage from an offside position and guilty of an infraction? Imagine the exact same senario with the ball gently rolling to a stop instead the defender makes a first time pass back in the general direction of his keeper. He simply did not see the offside attacker on the far side who now is closing down the said pass. Is this first time touch the controll (the ball was passed to the player the defender intended) we feel lacking in the clearance? Yet it was a horrible decision. Is it any less horrible than the poor kick for clearence when he could easily have dribbled it 20 yards before doing so? Certainly no amount of time has elapased it was a poor decision on the part of the defender it was not a deflection it was a mistake AFTER clear posession thus control was achieved. Is control in the quality of the touch or in the fact the defender has the opportunity to do as he wishes? In this senario although control and posession are clear the fact the ball was last touched by a teammate means the offside attackers can not play the ball. I would agree with the coach in that the misapplication of the law 11 demanded an offside. I would be interested if Dodgy would comment what if he signalled advantage would do to clear or corupt that issue? If as ref you see the keeper has clear opportunity to posess and is in fact controll and the passitivity of the attackers you signal APO and the keeper by her own accord still does not reach down to touch ithe ball before the offside attackers would you then award offside?
Offside Deflection Given the comment about the defender going over the back of an attacker in OSP (must have been an East-West header since otherwise the attacker could not have been in OSP if the defender was on his back). Is a whistle retroactive to the offense? In other words if a ball is played to an attacker in OSP and the outraged defender cold-cocks him before the ref whistles the O/S does the whistle relate back to the actual O/S offense so that the ball was not in play at the time of the punch so that it does not constitute a penal foul? Jim
Jim, that depends whether the referee is stopping play for the offside offense, or for the serious foul play. According to the Guide to Procedures (I think this is where it is established, would have to double-check), play is considered "stopped" when the referee mentally makes the decision play should be stopped, not when the actual signal is made. Applything that to your scenario: if the referee is making the decision to stop play from the offside but the SFP occurs between his decision and the blowing of the whistle, then play would indeed be restarted with an IFK to the defense. However since nobody can read your mind and it's obvious the SFP will infuriate players from both sides, law 18 might suggest awarding the DFK to the offense as if that was your intention all along If the striking occured after you had already blown your whistle for offside, then the correct restart would indeed be IFK to the defense. You would red card the defender for VM instead of SFP due to play already being stopped, but that has no bearing on the actual restart of play.