From the same article... "If there is truly a frontrunner, then the frontrunner is to stay at Soldier Field," Wilt said. That's not good news, though. There is no reason the Fire should have to advertise that the Bears are the real team that play at Soldier Field and we're just borrowing the facility. SF is not a Chicago stadium shared by two teams. It's the Bears' stadium that we're permitted to rent. A soccer only facility in Bridgeview is a far better option than being second class citizens at a nice NFL facility with well over half the seats empty every game.
I wonder how much it is that the fire is having second thoughts on whether Bridgeview's location would be a hinderance to the Fire's long term success. I don't know if they are trying to either squeeze daley or hope that daley will come up with a better economic plan to keep fire in chicago. I guess that they could stay in Sf but it seems that in a few years if the park disrict wanted to raise the rates in the lease the fire might have a hard time convincing suburbs that they were serious and not just trying to use them.
I just can't be convinced that staying in SF is in the best, long-term interests of the club or MLS. The current proposal process is probably (at least for the next 4-5 years, and barring a major explosion in MLS popularity) the best and only opportunity the Fire will have to get a really good public partnership for a new SSS. I've not seen the numbers, but the SF deal can't be THAT good. SF costs aside, looking at the additional drawbacks; the lack of control of dates, field conditions (gridiron lines, torn up by pointyball), lack of ticket scarcity, lack of additional stadium-based revenue (e.g. gift shop, museum, pub, etc.), and it all adds up to being condemmed to second-class sports franchise citizenship. Bridgeview is not perfect, but unless Daley grows a conscience it will probably have to do. The club may suffer a bit from a second suburban move in five years over the short-term. But as far as the long-term success of the club and the league are concerned, I think it is a fine option. Lastly, it should be considered that as the city has grown and the center been redeveloped in the last twenty years, all of the available growth North and West has been pretty much done. If one looks at the hot neighborhoods for redevelopment and the up-and-comers, one sees that the center of gravity for new urban development is moving South, through Pilsen, Bridgeport and into the U of C area. Again, long-term the trends are with us if we go to Bridgeview.
I am completetly comfortable with the Bridgeview location. Naperville was a heck of alot of worse and they made it do. Whats another 10 minutes south on Comiskey!!?!?!? No big deal in my book
Reason No. 3,478 to get out of New SF: Did anyone else notice how crappy the turf is already. So far there has been four Fire games and five Bears games. They actually got the sod laid very early, and I thought with the new heating and irrigation system, the field might stay in better shape. It really is bad, and there haven't been any concerts, truck pulls etc. I can't figure out why it is so difficult for the park district to keep a decent field, but it is clear that they can't.
Aside from the lines, it really hasn't seemed that bad to me at all. Certainly a whole lot better than the old stadium usually was at this time of year.
I'm talking about yesterday's Bears Game. That was not a good field, particularly in the middle. If you are talking bout the condition for the Fire games, I would agree, but those were some of the first events in the stadium. I was just at a Chiefs game at Arrowhead last week, and the field there was in much better condition than SF was yesterday. Make of that what you will, but it doesn't make much sense in my book.
I didn't watch the Bears game so I must plead ignorance. However, I do have to say despite their being some of the first events, a few games came in close proximity to Bears games and the field seemed to hold up well for both. Even mild incompetence can scew up a nice field with 2 big events in 3 days, and that didn't happen. I wouldn't say the SF grounds crew is that good, but they seem to be doing a heck of a lot better than the days when the field was half green-painted sand.
The worst thing about that green painted sand was that it wasn't even a similar color to the rest of the grass. Does anyone have any pictures/video stills of that field?
Re: Re: From the same article... It's only leverage if they don't know your're bluffing and/or don't have any (leverage, that is).
Careful...... if the Bears beat the Packers next week, they have a real shot at making the playoffs, especially if they can beat the Vikings at home the week after. I can't help it, I have to cheer for the Bears now that the Fire are done.
What? Not subsidizing us with taxpayer money is evil? I haven't heard any reason to believe that he's actually blocking a stadium near Comiskey. The sticking point in these deals is generally how much a team can extort out of local government. Even when the teams say "we'll cover everything," this is usually true, coming in the form of 'infrastructure improvements' that other businesses don't get. I respect Daley's stance on stadiums. He forced Wirtz to make common cause with the Bulls and finance their stadium almost entirely on their own. He left the Bears hanging for a long time, and eventually got a fair amount of money from them. I think the city lost more than it gained at SF, but that's arguable -- I think HalaMadrid has argued that the Bears did pay their share. This kind of stuff is why Canada have lost their hockey teams -- more people go and more people watch on tv up north, but the teams can't extort as much from cities up there. Fools in local government down here in the US eat up the ridiculous "economic development" numbers spun by various sports teams, and the teams make fortunes on it. Entertainment businesses provide very little economic development, because for the most part, people entertain themselves locally regardless of the choices. If there's no baseball, basketball or football team, they watch soccer, or (sadly more likely) college football and basketball. Or they go to movies more often, eat out more, play miniature golf more or gamble a little bit and drink more. Ask some local restaurants about the Bulls championshps. Any place that wasn't a sports bar or within a mile or so of the stadium will tell you it was a disaster for business. When you look at serious studies of this stuff, (as opposed to the consulting reports paid for by the teams, which often get played up in the teevee news) the marginal benefit is almost never as big as the money shelled out by the government. Mostly what our tax dollars do in these cases is help fuel the incredible transfer of money into athletes' pockets. I'm just as happy with a league where Americans make a little less than they would in Europe in order to stay on the same side of the Atlantic as their friends and family. When we have a larger soccer-watching public, the teams wil make more money. In the meantime, I don't want to subsidize them with my tax dollars.
I agree with your post, but this statement is almost laughable. Here are the numbers that the City and Bears would not disagree with. Stadium and surrounding development $650 Million Money advanced by the NFL on behalf of the Bears $100 Million Money from Bears raised through PSL sales to fans $30 Million Money contributed by the McCaskey family $0 For the most part, I agree with your argument that stadiums do nothing for the economic development of a City, and I am not convinced that a new Fire Stadium would do much to improve the Chicago economy. But, there are instances where a new stadium can be an engine to drive development and revitalization. I think Baltimore and Cleveland are both examples of this, and I think (if done properly) a fire stadium could add a lot to Bridgeview. Having said that, I still would prefer -- in order -- Chicago SSS, Bridgeview SSS and finally NSF.
ECHO, Echooo, echooo . . . I'll agree with the last two posts, especially on the order of preference stated by Chris M. When it comes to entertainment dollars, there is a finite number based on disposable income. On a very simplistic level, if the movies are the only entertainment in town, then the movies will do well. If a bowling alley appears, then there may be a marginal increase in overall spending, but essentially the same dollars are spread between them. This is the main argument as to why stadiums don't actually help revitalize neighborhoods much--they only redistribute dollars. One thing which should not be forgotten, however, is how the stadiums can work with and can work against the neighborhoods which they are members of (you might remember similar posts regarding this on these boards a while ago between Chris M., myself and I think Hattrix, but I think this bears restating). When you look at Comiskey or the United Center, you have stadia which sit in a sea of parking lots. Those parking lots act as a barricade in many ways. Because modern stadia are designed to maximize profit, everything that a fan could possibly ask for is there at the stadium. Because of the captive audience, the prices are higher. Modern stadia can offer everything, even restaurants, and so they do (HDC and Staples Center are good examples of stadia with restaurants). It is not in the stadium owner/operator's best interest to allow the finite disposable dollars at places other than the stadium. Because neither Comiskey nor the United Center are in neighborhoods which are particularly fan friendly from the get-go, and because everything a fan could want is inside the stadium, there aren't that many people crossing the parking lots going away from the stadium to sink their dollars into. It's not convenient, and there isn't a compelling reason to do so. On the other hand, looking at Wrigley, you have a place where fans can't just park and enter. You have a now thriving residential community around it. Restaurants do very well around Wrigley, partly because Wrigley lacks the one stop shopping of the modern park and because of the foot traffic. And though critics claim that almost no dollars go into the more traditional stores, such as bookstores, markets, and dry cleaners, I'll bet that some small percentage actually does, simply because of the increased foot traffic. This results in redistribution of dollars, both those used for entertainment and those used for necessaries, from the fan's usual pattern to the neighborhood of the stadium. The Fire have an opportunity here to break the mold a little bit. The Fire have proven in the past (Naperville) that they know how to work with a community to achieve both the Fire's objectives and those of the community. This time it's going to be for keeps. The stadium can be placed in such a way that it is in the community, not a wedding cake (as the United Center was once described) or a spaceship in the middle of a parking lot. If foot traffic is encouraged for the neighborhood--e.g. building parking garages strategically so that they can be used all week by residents and shoppers to get to work, shopping, or play and bring in revenue for the Fire--businesses will thrive next to the ample parking which will exist and the stadium and the team will be a member of the neighborhood, not some piece of public art that people in the neighborhood dread filling up every week in summer (though I fear that that sentiment will always exist to some extent). Meanwhile, if someone's smart and the land is available, they should open a courtyard surrounded with bars, restaurants, and stores catering to those ethnic communities who come to games. If only the Fire could get in on that (like the Metrostars, ugh, might if they're smart about it in Harrison), they could get revenue by directly encouraging a thriving community outside of the stadium. One last thought, and I know this is an outrageously long post, but, don't you think they should have a Honda dealership across the street from the stadium?
Wow. Nothing really to add to that. Excellent summary of past discussions. I agree regarding the limited entertainment dollars. A Chicago stadium would likely redistribute those dollars within Chicago. A Bridgeview stadium would suck those dollars away from Chicago. So it is not really a question of "how much can the City gain?" as it is "how much does the City stand to lose?" if the Fire head to Bridgeview. There is the obvious rent and revenue at SF, but there are probably more subtle loses.
Most can agree that a huge payout by a state or city to get or keep a sports team is not wise economically but there is a matter of image and prestige. Which is why Daley is not falling over himself to help a soccer team. It took the Bear 20 years to get a new stadium and that took ideal times and payoffs to practically everyone in the state. Now the state and city are broke. Only Bridgeview who wants desperately to redevelop the area around the proposed site is willing to spend the money. In the weeks to come we will see what happens. I have reservations about Bridgeview because this is not LA where everyone drives and is used to driving long distances. I don't know if the Fire is tying up all the details or is having second thoughts about Bridgeview, or if they really think giving Daley more time will make a difference. There is no rush to make a decision even though those on these boards would like one as soon as possible.
How much we can sell naming rights for is the key!! Alot of you have done a fantastic job of analyzing the situation. What it is going to come down to now is the ability and desire of AEG to cough up x amount to either keep us in the city or move us to bridgeview. If AEG can work out a deal and have a sponsor basically pay for the costs like with HDC.(Actual stadium cost 65million and rights were sold for 70million) then we stay in the city. Now we are looking at Bridgeview coughing up somewhere like 65 million correct?? The real question remains. How much do you think a Fire stadium in the city of Chicago near Comiskey(Us cellular) can get for naming rights? 10 Million 20 Million? 30? I think that is where the answer really lies in wether we stay in the city. not so much as how much money will the city gives us.
I'd think that if the HDC rights went for 70 million, A stadium in Chicago, at the Comiskey location, could get closer to that than your low guesses. Probably around 50 million. If the projected cost isaround 65 mill, that still leaves 15 million for somebody to pick up. It looks like the Fire is not one of the teams AEG plans to keep, so I doubt they'd cough it up. Daley sure as hell won't, and I don't think MDSC could pull together 15 million without cross certain legal lines. Its still not out of the question though.
I'm not knocking the Home Depot Center deal as it is clearly the best in league history, but there are a couple of points that make it unique, and NOT a good barometer for future deals. First, a huge chunk of that $70 million was "in-kind" sponsorship, meaning that AEG would buy as much of thebuilding material as possible through HD. Therefore, when AEG bought a hammer for $5 using HD money, HD still made the $2.50 mark up. This is very different than something like US Cellular's deal with Comiskey which I think is roughly $30 million for 10 years. Second, HDC is also a major olympic venue and tennis center. This will get the HD name out there a lot more than a soccer stadium alone. The biggest plus for naming rights near comiskey is that you can plant a big huge sign visible from the Dan ryan so that thousands of commuters will see it every day. Still, I don't think we could come anywhere near the $30 million that Reinsdorf was able to get out of US Cellular.
Good God, everyone is offering level-headed, sane posts about the stadium situation! Have we entirely run out of both piss AND vinegar? Who stole stevedm and replaced him with a pod person? Later, COZ
lol Niiiice!!! I am sure most people on here have figured out that I really dont believe alot of what I say on here. I love to antagonize. See Coz we wouldnt have this problem if you just become that superstar rock start you have been working and just build a place for us. Call it Cozzzmahal!! Then you can fire kenntomasch and show everybody how to really do it!!!