Official San Jose vs. DC United Post game thread (R)..

Discussion in 'D.C. United' started by Cweedchop, Aug 17, 2002.

  1. DigitalTron

    DigitalTron New Member

    Apr 4, 2001
    Arlington, VA
    Bird, you make some excellent points. For me the real tale of how well we did was that neither of the X-factors for the Quakes had any real contribution to the game--Manny Lagos and Wade Barrett.

    Yallop loves Barrett to get forward, but with Reyes and Olsen on the wing he simply could not. Either would take advantage of him and he cannot beat either offensively, so he had to be content with simply defending. He is similar to Ezra Hendrickson for LA in that he is a good indicator of who is winning the game depending on how much offense or defense he is playing.

    Lagos absolutely killed us last year, and we had no one who could guard him. This year we have several people, and he didn't like that very much.

    As for Donovan, he's maturing and played a very savvy game. He baited Prideaux after Prideaux got the first yellow card and got retaliation. Luckily for United the Ref saw it all and decided not to send Prideaux off, because Prideaux deserved to be sent off. Olsen tactically fouled Donovan at least two times and deserved to be carded. Donovan retaliated with some hard tackles to several United players to which Ben took more than a little exception. Donovan was the better player today, but Olsen won the psychological battle. He's definitely not lost that aspect of his game.

    I think people are being a bit too harsh on McKinley. His offense was a major reason why we did so well today. Playing defense against those fast and skilled Quakes is tough to do. They predicate their offensive game on an attacking game of fast runs and pinpoint passes. Their offense is highly organized and they run it like clockwork at Spartan. I think being able to slow them down and hold our own in the center of the pich should count for something in McKinely's favor.

  2. DigitalTron

    DigitalTron New Member

    Apr 4, 2001
    Arlington, VA


    Nobody tell Eliseo that his nickname Q2 doesn't really mean we expect him to score 2 goals a game. ;)

  3. Th4119

    Th4119 Member

    Jul 26, 2001
    Annandale, VA
    Forwards that miss empty net shots? I wish we could play them every week. Jaime has been on a downhill cycle for years now, we should get value for him while we still can. He's a cancer to this teams salary budget and he won't be drawing 2 markers as soon as they realize he's not the JM of old.
  4. BudWiser

    BudWiser New Member

    Jul 17, 2000
    Falls Church, VA
    Yeah but so what. This is not a sympathy organization. This is an organization looking to win games. I don't want to hear excuses. Just score goals. Quintanilla scored 2 and he's 10 years younger than Jaime

    Moreno was most certainly NOT lazy at all today, he just had terrible luck finishing


    C'mon man. The guy may be ok if he's not being paid the maximum salary, but IN NO WAY is that guy worth the max salary

    He looks terrible out there. Out of shape. Looks like he's a lazy *ss who spends too much time at McDonalds

    He misses PKs and sitters. His head obviously is not in the game. He's missing a killer instinct. Soft.

    In the 2nd half it was like he almost didn't exist. We should have subbed him out

    Argue what you will, but as far as bang for the buck, our max salary guy needs to get his head out of his *ss or he should get off the team. I'm still open to him scoring some goals-but our season is closer to over by now in part thanks to his inability to finish. If he scores now, it may make him feel good, but as far as making the playoffs, it probably won't matter. I see no reason at this time that he will be better next year

    That's the cold, hard truth of the matter, holmes. It may not be pretty-but I saw a lot of effort out there and if he's on board w/the stamina and determination of the rest of the team that game then we win and have a better shot at the playoffs
  5. Th4119

    Th4119 Member

    Jul 26, 2001
    Annandale, VA
    These are very good points too, Chris. I'm not thinking we should put Lassiter or Curtis in there to start for him, but I would just like to wonder if they even tried to trade him for another forward within the league. If so, I'd like to know about it.

    In any case I am more than willing to wait until Moreno gets comletely healthy again to judge him, however I'm just worried that may never happen again.
  6. entropy

    entropy Member

    Aug 31, 2000
    People's Republic of Alexandria, VA
    DC United
    Reyes...and he'd have him for lunch. ;)

    That said, I'm going to cautiously side with those calling for patience with regards to Moreno's form. I've been tough on Marco in the past, but he has looked decent as of late. So, it's only fair that I give Moreno the same chance. That said, he should never take a PK for United again.

    Best case scenario: DC sneaks into the playoffs, Jaime recovers his form, and with the rest of the team healthy...Who knows???
  7. Knave

    Knave Member+

    May 25, 1999
    ... hmmmph ...

    We used to ask whether we'd want to line up against Etcheverry. Now Etch wasn't too bad today - and I give him credit for that - but really, most of the time, no, I wouldn't mind lining up against Etch. I doubt our opponents mind.

    And I'm sorry to say it but Moreno is approaching that same category - most of the time I wouldn't mind mind lining up against him. Most of the time I suspect that our opponents think it just fine to see him staring down their defenders.

    Jaime can do magic with the ball. But not lately. Today, to be quite frank, the only magic I saw around Moreno was the magic that kept that damn ball spinning on the line without going over. That there was some serious magic but not the kind we'd like to see from him.

    Watching Q2 play today I actually found myself wondering what an all Q frontline would be like. It might be interesting to pair Quaranta will Quintanilla up top and maybe drop Jaime back as an attacking mid. But until everyone is healthy that's just hypothetical ... Meanwhile, Q2 can get the job done. Finally!

    Anyway, I don't want to take away anything from this game. It was solid - a much better bit of soccer than I expected to see today. The defense was great. Nelsen stoned San Jose all day - well, expect for that nifty-little-oopsy-daisy-between-the legs-where-did-the-ball-go bit. :rolleyes: And Reyes was marking Donovan and getting into the attack and (phew) he didn't get a yellow so he'll be able to play in the next match. And Rimando - as I said to someone at the match - he scares the s**t out of you with his unconventional play but he sure does come up with the big saves.

    My one complaint is that Ray waited until the 90th minute to make a sub. Olsen was not capable of going 90 minutes. He was clearly slowing early in the second half. Sure he provides a spark that nobody else can but he is not yet fit enough to go 90 minutes. Alegria was on the bench. And Mapp ultimately came in. Either of these might have been a good choice for Olsen round about the 60th minute.

    The oddest thing of all though was when I actually found myself thinking that we might just win the thing. Even into overtime I thought it possible. I even began to think it possible that we might make the playoffs. Put together a few draws on the road. Win some games at home. Who knows - maybe I'll be able to see DC United play again at Spartan Stadium this year. I'd drive up from LA for that! Possible ... It's been a long time since I thought such things were possible.

    Last year I thought the San Jose game was the turning point of the season. Hopefully this year the San Jose game will also be a turning point - one in the opposite direction from the turn we took last year.
  8. The Artist

    The Artist Member+

    Mar 22, 1999
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Even though neither man was 100% and neither had much to do with our goals it was outstanding to see Convey and Olsen on the wings. Two very smart players and with Convey's new and improved defense, two players who, when healthy, will propel United back to glory. Once those two are fully fit and on a wide field, Marco's passing will all the sudden return, he'll be salivating.

    I yelled a lot at Moreno too. But I vote for cutting him slack. He still helped create some chances today, and he holds the ball well. Maybe once Santino is back Hudson will be able to threaten Jamie with the bench, but not now. Curtis is just as bad as Jamie has been on easy chances, but he also can't pass.

    The most important thing to take from this game is: DC is better without Richie Williams on the field. I agree that McKinley was not nearly the pest we're used to at that position and SJ had a few too many quick counterattacks for my taste, but whatever we lose in defense is more than made up for in offense. McKinley had at least three quick outlet passes today that Williams couldn't make in his dreams (not because the passes were all that nice, but simply because Williams is a really, really bad passer). McKinley also was much better at drawing a defender away from Marco, which is one of the major reasons Marco played so well. When Williams is in the game, usually playing behind Marco, Marco has to find a passing lane through two or three defenders. Today he usually just needed to get by one.

    I know there are lots of Williams enthusiasts still, but DC played a smooth-flowing passing game on a pitch everyone agrees makes even good passing teams look bad. Certainly Olsen helped, but he and Convey had quiet games on offense and Moreno had a pretty rotten game, but still the offense looked a hundred times better than anytime in the past month. Why? It's the d-mid!
  9. The Artist

    The Artist Member+

    Mar 22, 1999
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Hudson "buys" time for Olsen via stoppage time

    See, that's the difference between us and a great team like San Jose. Hudson has to coach our players into embellishing an injury. Yallop's crew all have the god-given acting gifts of young Laurence Oliviers.

    On that topic I thought both SJ goals were the result of DeRo dives. They weren't yellow-card worthy, Grazianiesque dives, but all he was looking for on both plays was for someone to make contact so he could go down. Is that a heady play or a cheap goal? I guess it depends on your perspective.

    I also think that though Prideaux is stupid to shove Landon Donovan twice in the back at San Jose and would not have had much argument if sent off, Kevin Terry was absolutely right to step in and warn the players rather than ruining the competitiveness of a wonderful game. What Would Collina Do? Probably, IMO, the same thing.
  10. Wizardscharter

    Wizardscharter New Member

    Jul 25, 2001
    Blue Springs, MO
    I agree with all the background stuff, but not the main point: BP absolutely should have been booked. Maybe you give BP the first two-handed shove in Donovan's back. Maybe as a ref you judge the FIRST one as understandable given the injurious nature of Donvan's challenge. Maybe. You can't give BP the second one, that usually just leads to out of control games and flaired tempers. The moment BP shoves him the second time, he's booked agaiin and off, period. There isn't a way to defend or accept that kind of conduct during the game. This isn't hockey, it isn't an ingrained part of the culture of the sport for players to police themselves...and it shouldn't be.

    I will say as a fan watching the game, I loved the fact that BP got in two good hard shots to a hacker/diver, I only wish it would have been Graziani. I'd like the opportunity to shove hiim twice like that. Of course, Graz, being much more experienced, would have had much better timing on the Ruiz to the ground; and BP would have been booked.
  11. Dave Brother

    Dave Brother New Member

    Jun 10, 2001
    My MVP for the season........Toss up between "little Nikki" and Ryan Nelson.
  12. GoDC

    GoDC Member

    Nov 23, 1999
    Hamilton, VA
    Jaime must go.

    When you play at 50% most of the time and then need to do something, it is tough. Why the hell isn't he is shape. It's August. maybe if he would work hard in practice, he would be in shape. That knne injury is too old for me to hear about not being fit.
  13. Jose L. Couso

    Jose L. Couso New Member

    Jul 31, 2000
    Arlington, VA
    These things happen.

    Let me just say that towards the end of the game, Jaime lured two defenders to the sideline, then passed the ball to Marco in the middle, thereby creating a three on two, Marco played a quick one touch to Bobby Convey, whose point blank shot was saved. Those things happen.

    However, Moreno did make a truly amazing play late in the game, that could have won the game for DC United. Do we have any other forwards who can get in position to create three excellent oportunities, missed them, and still find a way to almost kill off the other team?

    Moreno has the Metrostars number, anybody willing to bet against him when the heat is on?

    ps-Oh, and when they stop double teaming him (which they will have to if the other forward keeps scoring goals!), he will be scoring tons of goals.
  14. Claymore

    Claymore Member

    Jul 9, 2000
    Montgomery Vlg, MD
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It comes down to a numbers game for next season.

    Bolivian + production + Big Fat Paycheck = here (Etch)

    Bolivian + lazy + Big Fat Paycheck = gone (Moreno)

    Bottom line is that we can't afford to keep Moreno and his salary if he isn't producing. Unless he turns it on for the remaining games, I think he's trade bait.
  15. SoccerEsq

    SoccerEsq Member

    Aug 28, 2000
    Maryland SoccerPlexish
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Playoff hopes!

    Playoff hopes!
    • We're riding a 3 game undefeated streak, while the Metros are riding a 3 game losing streak.
    • We're only 6 points behind them with 3 of our last 6 games against them.
    • They have no home games against any other teams besides us. (They have to go on the road to both LA and Dallas, while we get San Jose and Dallas at home.)

    It would make up for almost the whole season to make the playoffs (even in the 8th slot) by knocking them out. So let's not give up on the boys and start talking about next season quite yet.
  16. Cweedchop

    Cweedchop Member+

    Mar 6, 2000
    Ellicott City, Md
    First of all, Moreno is a maximum salary player and that renders him untouchable when concerning other teams interest in him.. Secondly, the trading deadline has already past and there is nothing that can be done about it now..

    Face it folks, were stuck with Moreno until the offseason when we could try and unload him but his maximum salary is basically untradable..

    Like I said previously, let's give him an opportunity to get himself healthy and then see what he has left.. I'm not willing to jump on the knee-jerk reaction bandwagon just yet as some of my fellow posters have already done...

    I'm not saying your right or wrong about the ineffectiveness of Moreno, all I'm saying is let's get him healthy before we run him out of town, and a great deal of that responsibility lies squarely on the shoulders of Jaime..
  17. ursula

    ursula Member

    Feb 21, 1999
    Republic of Cascadia
    Ray's one sub

    I was also was thinking a lot of Hudson's subbing policy in the game. I kept wondering when was Olsen gonna get subbed? Or how about Convey's shoulder? Bobby sure took a fall or two that probably hurt a lot. or maybe Moreno or ITT should have been subbed to get fresh legs in there. Instead we got Mapp in the 90th. Why and what did that mean? My answers:

    - Ray now realizes that there is a HUGE dropoff in talent from Olsen and Convey to Alegria and Alevanja and he is no longer gonna play the later two in any sort of situuation if a game is on the line if he can help it. The Quakes have two good high workrate guys in Lagos and Russell on the wings who can often dominate their sides of the field versus their opponents but that didn't happen yesterday. My guess is that Ray realized that if he subbed either of his wingers than Lagos and/or Russell might become dominate and get the game winner late. Ray waited till near the end to sub and when he did it was to bring in a guy (Mapp) who at least has the raw physical skills required to play the game.

    That makes sense to me. Both Alegria and Alevanja are just too slow to play in yesterday's game since they aren't tactically aware enough to play against a better opponent. Mapp, as we saw yesterday, at least has the physical tools to compete, at least for a limited time. I think that in the remaining games we will see very very very little of Alevanja and Alegria and more of Mapp. (We don't know yet what Hudson thinks of Villegas for this season. Maybe he would have been subbed in earlier if he were available- who knows.)

    -However putting Mapp in for some very important minutes says that Hudson is coming to trust in the kid, at least more than the A&A boys. We can say all we want about how Hudson doesn't trust young players or he can't coach them etc. but yesterday he put in Mapp with our season on the line: we lose this game in the closing seconds and our morale reaches new lows. In a way it's too bad that Mapp is gonna miss a couple of games with the U-20's in Spain, though I guess that Villegas will make a decent sub for the remainder of the season, especially against teams (like the metros) who don't have very good wingers.

    -Alegria and/or Alevanja could have been subbed in for ITT too as they have played that position before. That they didn't indicates that Hudson didn't think they could improve on a gassed ITT. Again I think Ray's right.

    -Finally, why wasn't Moreno subbed? That he wasn't indicates how far Curtis has fallen in Ray's eyes, or Lassiter. They've had their chances. And failed. Now it's Moreno's time and while I don't agree at all that we should get rid of Moreno (or should have before the trading deadline) my guess is that Jaime's job is completely on the line for next season in our remaining games. He's got to produce now or he's gone. If he gets injured again, even if it's relatively small like a hamstring or sprain, he's gone. Etcheverry showed yesterday that with a good supporting cast he can be dangerous again against the best MLS has to offer. If Etcheverry continues playing at this level (and I don't see why he won't) then all speculation of him not being on the team next year ends. Moreno though has to show the same and so far he hasn't. My guess is that Jaime knows this and will respond. He always responded in the past.
  18. Ted Cikowski

    Ted Cikowski Red Card

    May 31, 2000
    here are my impartial observations:

    San Jose does a lot of diving, and this has helped them to win games.

    Someone in this thread said Jaimie Moreno is the best striker in MLS......please.....even in his prime he is not as good as Serna, Diallo, Mathis or maybe even "pefect landin'" Donovan.

    DC United outplayed San Jose.

    Rimando made one the top 5 saves in MLS history yesterday.

    Quintenilla is going to be good.

    Next year Ray Hudson will get coach of the year. You heard it here first.
  19. GrillMaster

    GrillMaster Member

    Aug 31, 2000
    Alexandria, VA
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree that the blame falls squarely on Jaime's shoulders (with assists from Hall and other MLS refs in prior years allowing Jaime to get repeatedly hacked). BUT, how the F can you call Moreno the best striker in the League, even when on-form?????????? Christ, the guy has missed 67% of his PK attempts this year! Jingoistic, I suppose.

    Moreno has been directly responsible for letting six points slip through our fingers. In case anyone is math challenged, that would bring us even with the Mutts right now.

    Strikers are paid to FINISH! Jaime is finished because he cannot finish. I hope to God that DC is not finished because of Jaime's inability.

    And don't give me the crap that without Jaime, we wouldn't have even had an opportunity to score. Since he didn't finish it, such logic is meaningless. Strikers are there to finish opportunities. Sure they all miss from time to time. But Jaime can't seem to hit the side of a barn right now.

    I would be ecstatic for Jaime to make this post look foolish. He's a great guy and all that. But right now he is hurting the team more than any other player. The sad fact is that we don't have anyone to replace him or he would be yanking splinters from his rear when coming in at the 60th minute. Maybe Zambrano can finish better than Jaime. I hope so.

    Wake up CWeed man and everybody else who is dreaming. Jaime has done NOTHING for us this year except consume salary cap. It pains me to say it, but there it is.

  20. Th4119

    Th4119 Member

    Jul 26, 2001
    Annandale, VA
    We should've done Moreno for Wolff straight up. ;)
  21. Sandon Mibut

    Sandon Mibut Member+

    Feb 13, 2001
    When does Moreno's contract expire?

    I seem to recall that sometime in 98 or 99 or thereabouts, Moreno signed like a 4-year deal. I don't know the structure - duh! - but it's bound to have some league-held options.

    Anyone know if there's a chance that Moreno is out of contract at the end of the year or if there is a chance that he has an option year that the league could opt not to exercise?

    I wouldn't mind keeping Moreno but I'd like to see him take a pay cut - to say, about 150 - that gives the team more cap flexibility and reflects Moreno's decreased productivity but still gives him a high enough salary that recognizes what he has done for the team.
  22. Winoman

    Winoman Drinkin' Wine Spo-De-O-De!

    Jul 26, 2000
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    CW, I basically agree with you but my emphasis would be on RH telling Jaime to stay in DC during the off-season and re-habbing/working-him-out daily, in order to get him back in shape and to keep him in shape.

    If he can play himself back in to shape and score a few goals in the process this season, I think he will stay with the team. If he back-slides during the off-season and is not in good physical shape next pre-season, I would have no trouble with dropping him like a hot rock.

    BTW - to get back on topic, I was impressed by what DC showed me yesterday. Although I only saw a portion of the second half, I liked what I saw of the defense and midfield. I very much liked what I saw of Q2. I was less than thrilled to see Jaime's missed empty netter. That's not so much a lack of fitness, but lack of mental concentration. If his mind is not in the game, his body shouldn't be on the pitch, IMVHO.

  23. Cweedchop

    Cweedchop Member+

    Mar 6, 2000
    Ellicott City, Md

    I never said Jaime is now the best striker in MLS, I said when he is fully healthy, he is the best striker in MLS.. There is a difference.. And for that matter Ted Cikowski, Moreno was the best forward in MLS history until 2001 when injuries have pretty muched curtailed his career.. I'll take his overall game over Serna, Diallo, Kreis or anyone else you care to name anyday.. It's not always about scoring goals.. Jamie was the most complete striker to have ever played in MLS when he was healthy...

    Also Tom, how can you say that Moreno is directly responsible for us dropping 6 points? 3, yes, but not 6.. His PK miss against Kansas City was in the 46th minute and there simply is no way to tell how the game would have unfolded after that.. The meaningless logic you spoke of above applies to this case as well...

    For what it's worth, I do agree with you that Moreno has done next to nothing for this team this year and it pains me to see that, but were talking about a player who hasn't been 100% all season long (most of it by his own doing I will concede)..

    All I am saying (for what seems the 100th time) is that let's see what we get from him when healthy.. We simply do not have any other options at this point and we just have to trust Jaime to get off his arse and get himself into top shape heading into next season.. If he can't bring himself to do this, then Hudson would have no choice but to try and unload him, but his salary will make him next to impossible to move without getting raped by another team in the process (sorry to use such an uncooth word)..

    There is only one simple solution to this problem.. Jaime needs to get his ass into better shape during the offseason..
  24. andylovesoccer

    Sep 2, 2000
    Asheville, NC
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You guys gave Thomas WrongOne more of an opportunity to improve than you are giving Moreno. He has played in about half of our games this season so all of our woes don't fall squarely on his shoulders. I can't believe the leniency shown towards someone like Ali Curtis, while Moreno is getting slammed for having a bad season. You are absolutely right that strikers are paid to finish, but realize that every athlete in every sport goes through slumps and bad spells. Trading Moreno in the off-season would be a huge and regrettable mistake in my eyes.
  25. owendylan

    owendylan Member

    May 30, 2001
    DC United
    He wsan't tactically aware, he was completely gassed and that was the only thing he could do. I think he should have never been put intha position to commit a dumb fould that earned him the card. Hudson should have subbed him out about 10 minutes earlier. In the second half the only thing of note he did was get the yellow. He was gassed by the 60th min. and should have been out. If Mapp was going to get some time, give him some meaningful minutes not just 10 in overtime. I would have liked to have seen him get 20-30 in the game. We would have had fresher legs on the right side and Ben wouldn't have been forced to get a yellow card.

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