Official: Mapp to Chicago for Dema

The winner in this trade was Justin Mapp.

 

I'm not sure I like the idea of trading a player who counts as zero towards the cap for a player who counts for something and won't be a full-time player. Does anyone know how much Dema makes? I see this as Hudson giving up on Mapp early. Sure Hudson sings Quaranta's praise but he also did the same of Talley before shipping him out and a few other players. You can't believe a word the guy says because time and time again his actions have betrayed his words. Ray is in the win now mode which mortgages the future of the team. Yes I know Dema is 25 and I like him as a player, but do we have any players left on the team from the last two drafts? If we are going to get rid of players before they get a chance to develop I hope we trade all of our draft picks away because they're not going to get a chance with Ray as the coach.

 

First, last year our problem was not giving up too many counter attack goals. Our problem was scoring goals. It was Rongen's teams that gave up counter attack goals. You know this.

Second,you and I also know that the above lineup is just a work-in-progress lineup and that Hudson has some more trading and signing to do before we can start to pencil in names.

 

Another good trade for DC. Mapp may turn into a force down the line, or he may turn into Jason Moore. I'm willing to take that chance to get a solid player like Dema. Call him a hack or a thug, but he brings it to every game and every practice. I am anxious to see the other roster spots filled, and this team on the field!

 

I expect that lineup to be tweaked but it is what we have to work with for now. They did however give up numerous counter attack goals last year. You are correct, however, in saying that it was a bigger problem in the Rongen Years. I hope that the ones that did happen were just carry over from the Rongen Years.

Mike, you are just looking for Aunger's replacement. THUD!!!

 

I think this was a great trade for DC United. I can not be more pleased.
Analogy,
If anybody knows basketball this is like trading Jared Jeffries for Glenn Robinson.

Now I dont understand how anybody can access this as a bad trade. A proven all-star for a prospect. Maybe we are not getting a guy who can change the complextion of the game, but we are getting a proven all-star. Who is to say Justin Mapp will be a all-star ever. I like the previous analogy about Jason Moore. Jason Moore had a lot of talent, but only panned out to be a average at best MLS player. I just dont understand any of these negative posts.

 

Our young stars for all their hype haven't won us a cup yet. Tino and Convey need to improve alot to make this team regain its former greatness.
I know Man U is jumping to sign them...right?
I like the trade. If Mapp can't break into the lineup during one of our worst years than who needs him.
Dema is a proven player, not a pipe dream.

 

I like the trade. Kovalenko brings grit, pace, flexibility, and some skill. And he's no geezer, he's only 25! But what do we need to do to pry loose either Wolf or Razov? I don't have a lot of confidence that we can entice a class finisher to leave Europe, so it's a good idea to go after MLS players who are vulnerable to being dropped for cap reasons. Both these guys can put the ball in the net. Wolf's speed gives defenses fits, and Razov has been a consistent scorer everywhere he has been.

 

Owendylan--yes, look at Hudson's actions not his words. His actions? He started Quaranta every chance he got when he was healthy (and even a few times when he was still not completely in-form). He publicly blasted Nelsen--then gave him a chance to respond and slotted him in from that point on--as long as he was healthy.

There are lots of things we can debate about Hudson, some of which we will never know for sure. A few things we do know for sure:
1. He has a lot of contacts outside the USA and has done a lot of scouting outside.
2. He is capable of sweet-talking players into signing for less then they'd normally get--he is a real salesman of his program.
3. He has done a good job massaging egos and getting a number of players to have career years or at least play well (obviously, not everyone, but I think Preki, Henderson, Mastroeni, Rimando, Serna, Nelsen, eventually Convey, Quaranta, Rooney, Bishop, Alex Pineda Chacon) are all players that responded well to him.
4. He'll play young players that display the kind of mental fortitude he expects (which is why he's so high on Quaranta and why he won't allow himself to be separated from Rimando and why Quintanilla got PT).
5. As for the point about giving up counter-attack goals, look--we all like to play with imaginary lineups and so on. But the real value of the first trade wasn't who we got--we gave up more talent than we got. The real value of the first trade is what it sets us up to do. None of those "to do's" have happened yet (ie: use the additional allocation, use the #5 pick, set up package deals). This is like evaluating Colorado a year ago when they had 6 players on the roster and concluding "we can't compete". The roster not only isn't set--I wouldn't be surprised if our openning day roster has 10 names on it that currently aren't there. So before we start talking about "we're gonna have problems with counters" or "we still can't score goals" or whatever, let's wait till we add at least another 4-6 players (which is what I see as the minimum remaining moves).

 

And he had little choice but to play both players. He didn't have anyone else up front to play in place of Quaranta and Pope left for the WC at about the same time Nelsen was consistently starting. Coincidence?

Ray will say what he thinks the listener/questioner wants to hear. Sometimes it's the truth and sometimes he's blowing smoke.

 

Well, Ray has kept everyone entertained during the off-season anyway.

I have to smile when I read that Dema beings versatility to DC. Ok, but Ray traded away three versatile players -- Talley, Kamler, and Armstrong -- and, if I recall correctly, announced that he didn't want that sort of player on his team.

DC now the second incarnation of Miami -- we can only hope so. But remember that Ray's contributions to that team were Chacon and Bishop. The league virtually handed him Preki and Llamosa. Nearly all the other players were there when he got there. Of course, the pieces all fit together and you have to give Ray credit for that, but let's not get carried away. Miami wasn't Green Bay and Ray's not Vince Lombardi.

Ray wants to win now. Well, we all do. Is it likely? Was it ever likely? Doubtful. First, my understanding is that only New York faces a major overhaul this off-season. Almost every other team has the luxury of fitting a few youngsters into a solid core. The league will be very competitive this year. Second, DC will field a team where most players are new or new to their position. If you take the Post's lineup seriously, only Prideaux, Nelsen, Marco, and Tino will be in the same positions as last year. And the team will have to assimilate several newcomers, including, if rumors are true, several foreigners. At best, it will take a while to make all the adjustments. Third, DC's roster at the end of last season was not particularly strong. DC needs to add talent just to be competitive. So -- a prudent management would recognize that sacrificing the future for success in 2003 might not be such a good idea.

Final thought -- I don't think many European clubs would exchange a starter on the national under 20 team for a journeyman midfielder.

 

Mapp is hardly a dominating player on the U-20 team in fact far from it, while Kovalenko, a two time League All Star, is no journeyman midfielder.

 

I think there is just a little bit of revisionist history going on here.

1. Remaking DCU into a version of Miami and going for aged players? All the pieces were there when Hudson got there? I don't think so.

First, Hudson replaced Ivo Wortmann in mid-season. He then proceeded to do a bunch of things. Rimando got regular playing time (and showed his worth). Kyle Beckerman got a chance to play (and he scored his first MLS goal--against DCU--before Convey did). As I recall, Hudson did more than just bring in APC and Bishop. Didn't he also bring in Llamosa and Henderson and Preki (and I don't think those were gifts from the league). Serna had been insisted he wanted to be traded--and he instead got a career year out of him. He got great play from Rooney and Mastroeni. I thought he brought in Marshall as well that year (though my memory may be wrong). It was almost an entire team remake--new players or players in new roles and new positions. And, though Preki and Bishop weren't any spring chickens, it wasn't an old team either.

Second, the trades of Talley, Kamler and Armstrong as "versatile" players--those were dictated by the cap or SI status. At the point Armstrong was traded, we had 4 SI's and we were all wondering if we were going to CUT Nelsen or Armstrong. I like both Talley and Kamler but both were dictated by cap--Hudson indicated that b/c of the teams cap commitments to maximum salary players, that meant that in order to bring in new players, the only cap room would come from replacing guys making $70K (Talley) with a guy making the minimum (or cap exempt).

Third, as for Quaranta started b/c there was no-one else, again if Hudson was anti-youth, he could have just kept giving ATC shots. He could have easily brought in guys like Ian Woan (from Miami and cheap). He could have signed Bobby Simmonds (who he knew from Miami days--an A-league vet). He could have encouraged AJ Wood to stick around. Instead, Quaranta got every shot to start that he could and Ali Curtis was brought in. You can argue we'd have been better served with different talent but you can't argue that Hudson consistantly denied youth a chance to play. And what about bringing in Quintanilla--another youngster? Or is the claim only that he doesn't trust American youngsters?

Fourth--he played Nelsen only b/c Pope was at the WC? Actually, I think you've got it backwards. With Nelsen gone b/c of NZ National team commitments, it would have been incredibly easy to phase him out. But Nelsen got PT prior to WC camp with Pope. Check the threads back then--Hudson was publicly critical of Convey, Nelsen and Lisi, indicated they would have to bring it in scrimmages and practices--then proceeded to praise each of them to some degree b/c of their work in scrimmages (like against U.Va) or in practice. Nelsen clearly got the message and earned PT (including when Pope was available and Hudson could have played with only 3 in the back or slotted McKinley in). Convey slumped originally but rebounded to demonstrate much better defense, ball winning ability and a better all-around game. Lisi never showed what Hudson wanted and got traded.

 

For now, I'm gonna leave aside the question of whether this trade will help the franchise do better or not. But it's a trade Hudson had to make.

1. The analogy somebody used of the Trailblazers picking Sam Bowie instead of MJ was very poor...nobody knew for certain what either would do. But let's face it, we've got a pretty good idea of what Dema brings.

2. This notion of saving up for the future...I don't get it. MLS' structure makes 5 year plans, even 3 year plans, completely pointless. 2 year plans make sense, nothing else. If the rules change, or the economics of either MLS or international soccer change (and the latter is happening already), then maybe trading an MLSer who is a future star is a bad idea. But as it is, any 3 year plan is de facto a bad plan.

3. If DC doesn't make the playoffs this year, Hudson gets fired. Which player makes it more likely that DC will make the playoffs? The answer is 110% obvious, isn't it?

4. Let's say DT's wet dream comes true, and Mapp is David Ginola reincarnated. So what? He'll just leave for Europe. Best case scenario then is that his salary goes to the max, forcing whatever club has him to break up their team. Bottom line is, if he's as good as Dema, he's as good as Dema. If he's more than a touch better than Dema, he's in Europe anyway (under current conditions).

5. If Mapp's that good, how many matches will he miss with the Nats? And he'll be that much more likely to sustain an injury, playing more matches.

I just don't understand how anyone in their right mind could criticize a coach who will get fired if the team stinks this year for making this trade. And, frankly, it's only slightly less incomprehensible to me for an MLS coach to be criticized for trading a player who figures to maybe be good, even great, but not till 3 years down the line.

 

Truer words were not yet spoken in this thread.

 

How is Dema Kovalenko a journeyman midfielder?

Uff-dah.

 

Mapp saw such little, ineffective playing time that I can only imagine what kind of deal this actually is. Dema is an amazing, and somewhat underrated, player, but I'm excited to see him in a DC uniform.

Could you imagine the powerful linking team Dema and Pope could've been?

 

So trying to put this is the best light.

Petke for Moreno
Dema for Richie
Eskandrian for Mapp
Pope for an undisclosed international (most likely a forward)

Possible addition of allocation or another "big time" player.

Looks like this could be a good set of trades. We could have a good team if Ray can make them into his "fist."

 

1. I know this one isn't directed at me but you're mostly right. I think Marshall was already there.

2. Armstrong we know about since he was the odd-SI out. Kamler, well Ray has traded him ever team he's been with. Talley is the one that is perplexing because Ray praised him to high heaven even saying that he had tried to acquire him several times when at Miami and then goes and trades him. It just seems that a different move could have been done. I don't remember the roster at the time but I remember a few alternatives that seemed plausible.

3. As for Quaranta ATC wasn't going to be given any more shats after he went back to SL and was late coming back and Ray didn't know what the deal was. I think this kind of unprofessionalism rubbed Ray the wrong way and doomed ATC to his ultimate fate. I have said that Ray doesn't do a good job of developing young players, others have claimed a total anti-youth thing. I think his preference is for veterans because he doesn't have to coach them too much just give some general guidelines on how he wants them to play. If there is an exceptional talent Ray will play them, like Quaranta, but that doesn't mean he knows how to make them better players.

4. We can argue a few things about Nelsen. I won't argue the timing because I don't remember it all. However when Nelsen came back and was available to play with Pope, he did. I think Ray had discovered that he really didn't have the personnel to play with a 3 back and that Nelsen was much better than McKinley in the middle. When Pope left he played Prideaux and Nelsen in the middle with McKinley and Reyes on the outside. He had also acquired Perez so he could have frozen Nelsen out if he wanted. You know I can't even remember what we were arguing about in regards to Nelsen. He played well and proved he deserved to start after a semi-rocky start.

 

The only way this trade is bad is if Mapp becomes, not Ginola, but Ronaldo or Henry, someone who can score consistently. A wing midfielder is not going to be the future of United. One player is not going to make or break a soccer team. Any championship team is going to need skill as well as toughness, youth as well as experience, speed as well as size. Mapp might have had skill and youth, but with Convey, Q1, Q2, Rimando, Alegria, Olsen and four top draft picks he was expendable. Dema, even during a bad year, is everything DC lacked last year. I was really looking forward to seeing Mapp play and I think he could be very good and I didn't think much of Dema but I still think this is an excellent trade. Look at this trade the same way you look at the Metros trade - not just at the players involved but at the overall context of the trade.

DC will probably be the youngest team in the league next year. Don't fear for the future.

 

Well, there may be another subtraction from the lineups I've seen posted on here. European signing period opens up on Jan. 1st. It's a rumor right now.

 

We all know Ali Curtis is on his way to Real Madrid to replace Ronaldo who is retiring to focus on his international career.

Sachin

 

Are you tryin to be funny there, pretty boy?? Ali's been cut for the last year and a half.

 

Clearly, some DC fans want to engage in Ray wroship and no amount of factual analysis will deter them. But to review the facts briefly -- did Ray do some good things with Miami? -- yes. He brought in at least two good foreign players -- Chacon and Bishop. He was also the beneficiary of two,perhaps three trades within the league -- for Preki, Llamosa, and Henderson. Those of us who are capable of critical thinking when it comes to Ray are likely to believe that these trades had little to do with Ray's ability to pick players and everything to do with the peculilar nature of MLS, the salary cap and so on. Ray also dumped a few players and kept others in the lineup, particularly Pablo and Rimando.

Did Ray develop any young players in Miami? Not really. For one thing, he wasn't there long enough. And the two principal young players -- Mastroeni and Rimando were already in the starting lineup when he took over the team.

Was his Miami team more than a one-year wonder? We'll never know.

Does this make Ray a good coach or an ace rebuilder of teams, or a demon developer of young players or a keen eye for talent in obscure places? Maybe, but the evidence is pretty thin. One year plus is not much of a record. Many MLS coaches have looked good for that period. Many of the same folks who adore Ray think Rongen was a moron and yet, in his first year, he did quite well.
If, on the other hand, all Ray had going for him was his first year in DC, he shouldn't be making any long-term plans. Lots of strange moves; not much success.

Obviously this coming year is crucial for Ray. If the team doesn't win big, he will probably be back cleaning pools.

It is relevant that Ray is different from almost all the other coaches that were rumoured to be headed to DC before last season. All of them had considerable track records as winners and as developers of talent. Perahps Ray will be better than they would have been, but clearly the odds are against it. It could just as easily be that Ray got lucky in Miami and is really the inarticulate, boorish moron he sounds like.