Official Kansas Wizards @ DC United POST Match Thread [R]

As a moderator, I'm really going to try and stay as non-troll as possible here...

It is 2005!!!!
It is apparent by your post that you believe that a team can't change styles over 5 season. Pull the blinders down a bit more man. Unlike the fans that think KC still plays like they did in 2000, the KC fans see most (damn TV deals keep us from road games a lot) of our games. We know how we play, and it's not boring and all out defensive anymore.

KC fans will be the very first to admit that our style in 2000 was boring to watch, from an outsiders perspective. You'd be hard pressed to find a fan of a team in any sport who will complain about their teams style when they are winning every game and win the championship. Any claim otherwise is bullsh!t and should be ignored. Therefore you didn't hear many complaints, and won't, from KC fans about our style in 2000 because we won the Cup. And that's what it's all about right?

As stated, it is now 2005 and the Wizards have three season in a row of playing more attractive, offensive soccer than we did in 1999-2002. Are we playing like the '01 Fusion? No, but no one in this league does. Chivas tries, look how that is working out. Gansler has KC doing what it takes to win (although this season it's not working out as well). But as I stated, and NO ONE has refuted, results are what matters. And while stats aren't everything in soccer, the goal production KC has been putting out the last couple years should tell enough of the story. You don't score goals when all you're worrying about is defense.

So who cares how many guys are behind the ball, or how we get the ball in the back of the net. All that matters to KC fans is that the other goalkeeper is picking the ball out of the net. And it would be the same for any other teams fan.

 

The night before you were trolling; but here, you're not. And you know what? I agree with you here. While I do think that KC spent a fair amount of time with 11 behind the ball Saturday evening, that is not why we lost that match. We didn't even lose because of Carroll's mistake, even though he did make a mistake and even though it cost us a very soft goal. We lost because our finishing sucked. Period.

 

Starters from MLS Cup 2000 who played Saturday: Chris Klein, Nick Garcia.

Time to move on, Tom.

The Wizards did bunker all through 2000. Quite successfully, I might add. They tried it again in 2001 and got punished. When push came to shove, they tried it in 2002 and got punished even worse. Since 2003 the team hasn't been a bunkering team. The problem is that they have never replaced Preki, and they've basically abdicated. Jose Burciaga seems to be running the attack from left back. That's not "bunkering" - it's "dysfunctional.

The Wizards actually tend to play a lot of possession now. Bunkering is not a possession game. The problem the Wizards are having is that creative spark in the attack. But then DC's got its problems too - Or a lineup with Jaime Moreno, Alecko Eskandarian, Santino Quaranta, Freddy Adu and Christian Gomez would have more than 22 goals in 16 games.

It'd be nice to try to actually discuss things with DC fans without the continual smack that has nothing to do with the game. Yeah, we get it. Attendance at Arrowhead sucks this year. We're more than happy to discuss the reasons for that, too - but it has absolutely jack squat to do with Saturday's game.

 

One issue that we have some problems with even with a full squad, is dealing with another team that is playing a 3-5-2. With 10 midfielders in the middle, it certainly gets clogged up, and if United isn't putting tons of pressure (which they didn't against KC) on the ball the ball just kinda pings around the MF.

To compound our problems, KC is a very good defensive team, so once United gets out of the midfield, they must deal with the defenders (not really a problem against Columbus).

What we saw was definately not the old bunkering style that we've seen from KC. Sure they had numbers behind the ball in their own end, but they were trying to win it, and not just let us knock it around until we make a mistake (though we seem to provide that from time to time on our own).

 

Well it does and it doesn't. Some would think that a teams style of play has an influence on attendance. So if one thought that KC played a boring, defensive style of soccer, that fans wouldn't show up because all fans want to see attacking, wide open, high scoring games.

I agree with you that it's more dysfunctional than defensive and KC can be an attractive side to watch. I also agree that the attendance problems have less to do with how the game is played and more with the lack of funds made available for marketing.

 

Perhaps - but MLS is not a "major" league and most of attendance has less to do with where teams are in the standings or how attractively they play and more to do with promotion and selling.

Plus, you can't possibly be suggesting that the vast majority of the attendance comments in these KC/DC threads - or whenever a KC fan shows up in the DC or MLS forums - has anything to do with anything other than smack. "You can't draw flies, I hope your boring team moves" type of comments are not discussion or analysis.

 

And those that think that are wrong. Check out Chivas' attendence.

Sachin

 

i reckon it doesn't matter that waldo was right?

 

See: stopped watch, Cross Reference: twice daily

Sachin

 

with that comment on freddy, he'd be right more than twice daily friend. i'm a freddy fan, but 'tis true what the man says. just a kid, he'll grow. but speaking the truth isn't a bad thing.

 

No, the only "reality" is 1-0. The rest of that is you exaggerating for effect. If Christian Gomez and Freddy would actually pass it to one another, maybe you'd be able to break us down.

 

I agree that the Chivas USA example might be a tad misleading. Don't understimate the impact of having a ready-made fan base available from the parent club and the novelty of another team in the area (with the attendant excitement of the local derby, etc.), one that is tailor-made for a Latino constituency.

Let's see what their attendance in year three, esp. if they maintain the current won-lost ratio.

The commitment to an attacking style is a good thing (and a great marketing tool), but they are learning that a balls-to-the-wall attacking approach only works if you have a back line capable of handling the inevitable counterattacks.

 

Talk about a 'trolling' comment.

You cannot deny that KC had most of the team behind the ball for most of the match. I happen to think that's a smart way to play on the road, but that's not what you're saying.

 

How was that trolling? This was his comment.

That is exaggeration. We had multiple offensive buildups that fizzled out because of our ineptitude rather than us always trying to beat the defense with a long ball. Jose didn't push as much forward as usual, but I think that was to give DC a different look than the last 2 times we've played you. Hell, Nick Garcia spent as much time forward as anyone in your backline. We scored on a counter - kind of. It's hard to blame that on bunkering though when you give it right to us in your half.

 

But it's also quite harsh to compare the men behind the ball that KC plays on the road now and the all out bunkering that went on from 2000-2002.

The fact is, most DC/KC games regardless of where they are played are going to tend to be boring. I watch and attend more DC games than most DC fans, and I watch more KC games than most people. The problem is that both teams play an opportunistic style. They both tend to wait for the other team to make a mistake then they pounce. When KC or DC plays an attacking team like Chicago or New England, things tend to open up a bit. But when two counter punchers play, it tends to be more or less a game of neutral ice crap.

 

I agree, Andy. It's painful to let go of our fondly-held stereotypes. I think the decision to bunker or not is a tactical one (obviously). My point is that it's not a strategic season-long decision. The game-day decision is made based upon personnel available, the opponent's strengths and weaknesses, and whether or not it's a road game.

I couldn't agree more.

I think a lot of frustration you're seeing has to do with the number of squandered chances we generated. Maybe I'm biased, but I think we would have won had we put away a third of our opportunities.

Finally, we slag on every opponent, not just KC. Said slagging increases exponentially when we lose at home (to an in-conference opponent, yet!)

 

Completely agree.

I am not suggesting that at all. those types of comments are not discussion or analysis, I was just pointing out a possible motive/point of view, though not my own.

 

He did. I saw it too and noticed the same signifigance about it that you did.

 

So when DC beats Kansas City in a couple weeks or whatever am I going to be treated with as much civility as you guys have gotten from us if I come post on your boards or is there going to be some kind of magical double standard that whatever any DC fan says is trash?

Keep it in mind please, Wizards fans who are posting in this thread. I'm not saying you're trolling here because I think most of your responses are at least somewhat intelligent and not trying to flame people after a loss, but please keep in mind that coming to a team's boards after a game in which you were outplayed and got the result (on the road) isn't always the classiest thing to do.

I know your boards aren't as active and you guys have wizardscharter posting over there so I would come to more reasonable places to discuss a game as well, but still, I don't think it shows well on you guys running over here and (even if unintentionally) rubbing the result in more so than we already do.

 

Actually, you'll find that most of the midwestern forums: KC, Dallas, Colorado are relatively civil. We tolerate all manner of visitors. Even on gamedays. However, we do tend to react rather negatively to smack. It's fine to say your team's going to win, that doesn't bother us. Sometimes we'll even agree.

How is it "not classy". As long as it's respectful deconstruction of the game.

We're mostly just defending our team from knee-jerk analysis as opposed to telling you what's wrong with your team.

Even when you try, you can't help yourselves. If it's not a swipe at the Wizards, Kansas City, Kansas, the attendance at Arrowhead, it's a swipe at another one of the Wizards' fans. And you want to bring up the word "classy?"

Please point out the post where we're "rubbing it in." Defending our team against being called "bunkering" isn't rubbing it in.

I'll kindly step aside. The fact is, I find most of us who do come over here to participate do try to engage in constructive discussion. However, I honestly can't say the same for the majority of DC fans that do actually show up in the KC boards. There are bad apples all around. Let's not lump "all DC fans" together or "all KC fans" together.

You're not responsible for the DC trolls that plague the other boards - no more than I or other Wizards fans are responsible for an Wizards fans that come here to troll.

 

The Dallas moderators don't edit every post of someone who says something there regardless of it's topic anymore? Good to know.

I hope I can hold you to the rest of your statement.

If you have to ask, explaining it probably won't help. "Respectful deconstruction" or not, it gives off the vibe of sticking your noses up at us. That you guys won so you feel the perogative to come over here and talk about the victory. It's one thing for a fan of a losing team to come over here after they've lost in a close match and say "good game" or something like that, but then again I didn't see too many of you guys over here after MLS Cup 2004 analyzing how DC put three in the net in eight minutes or so.

I never said you weren't. Fact is, you're doing it on OUR boards. Do it on your own if you want. Start a thread that says "DC United fans are idiots", I don't care. It's your boards, I don't check them. You guys must be pretty hypersensitive about the subject if you feel the need to come in defend it over here.

I don't think you guys played particularly negatively in the game, and to be honest I think a lot of people confuse parts of the negativity with the fact that your team is well organized and does the little things many people don't notice like getting around attackers when on defense to win balls and thus diffuse attacks before they start.

Have you guys been guilty in the past of some wretched matches to watch? Absolutely.

If we make comments that say that now, who are you to come and correct them? I know you post here a lot and on other boards, but still, be realistic after such a dissapointing drop of three points that should have been in the bag that griping about our frustration might be just a little bit annoying.

You're right. I made a joke about a particluarly annoying (the kinder words of KC fans I've talked to) poster who used to troll here a lot. But I did it on our boards in one of our threads and it was a legit comment. If he were a DC fan posting here, I would probably spend a lot less time in this forum or invest in an ignore list.

Who cares if we make jokes about things that are true. You guys really get angry about the Kansas comments? That's just ridiuclous. Get over it, it's a joke.

Hell, I bet half the reason you guys catch so much flack is because you care so much about what we say.

Again, it just stinks of arrogance to start posting in a losing teams thread, regardless of any so called intentions. I have to ask why you guys care so much if some DC fans think you guys bunkered or not. If you think we're wrong, fine. If you think we're stupid, fine. I still don't see the need for you to come and start anything about it. Isn't that what the MLS: News and Analysis forum is for? Start a thread there if you like.

You're right about that as well. I didn't realize I lumped anyone together when I clearly said, "Keep it in mind please, Wizards fans who are posting in this thread." I really don't see any lumping there. If DC fans come and post on other boards, I can't condone it but I also can honestly say I don't know about it. I check two forums here with any sort of regularity, and only one is of an MLS team. The other being the College and Amateur section.

I don't stick my noses in other people's business unless I have a legit question or am looking in a pre-match thread for a projected lineup of an opponent.

Thanks for pointing that out. But again, I never, never said that any of you guys were trolling. In fact, I said that "I'm not saying you're trolling", but again, it just reeks of arrogance to be coming over here after a game like that.

If you guys were truly analyzing the game, saying things like, "It was an opportunistic goal scored by Victorine after a giveaway by Carroll" or "DC had the majority of chances but KC got the result", then that's one thing. But you guys just have sour grapes over the bunkering comments and it's getting really old. It's almost becoming an inferiority complex with a lot of Wizards fans on BigSoccer who I understand must be tired of hearing it, but who cares? If you guys are winning games be happy about that.

Look, I know you all are probably ecstatic with the win for the first time in DC since the first year of MLS, and it's certainly nothing to be ashamed about. I also know that none of you came over here trying to troll, which is why I outlined that in my earlier post. In fact, none of you probably had any idea that what you were doing was annoying to anyone, which is why I didn't make some post calling you all a bunch of jerks or anything, but tried to point it out.

All I ask is that you guys realize the amount of respect you've been shown here, and recipricate that if DC wins. Like I said, I don't know if DC trolls came onto the Wizards forum and posted after our MLS Cup win over you guys, and if they did, I apoligize on their behalf. But as you said, there's no need to lump all of us in one group like that and please just think for a minute or two that even if you post something not meant to be trolling, it still might be irking a great number of people.

 

you guys need to stop being pessimistic. DC United has a good team. Good fans. It was just bad luck.. Great cheering section on saturday. That is how it is supposed to be done. Win on friday and everything will be back to normal. Remember this is where we were at next year. Nowak is a good coach. Its not a slow start. 6-6-4. Its just the east is stacked compared to the west. Columbus is basically already out of it.

 

No, no, a win on Friday and people start thinking about MLS Cup.

Oh wait, I guess that back and forth is normal here...

 

Where's that lithium again?

GM