Official Fire Jurgen Klinsmann Thread

Discussion in 'USA Men' started by ussoccer97531, May 22, 2014.

  1. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #7176 TheHoustonHoyaFan, Oct 12, 2024
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2024
    Yes just like if Berhalter had not gotten grouped at Copa he would still be the US coach.

    If Arena had beaten CR at home or T&T on the road he would still be the manager. Bradley if he had not been clobbered by Mexico 2-4 would still be the coach.

    Very clear pattern, it is not rocket science.
     
  2. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Deuce again on Klinsmann in talking about Poch.

    "When Jurgen [Klinnsmann] became coach, it was cool to get a coach who had won everything. He won World Cups, he won Champions Leauge and he came in and could demonstrate what he wanted us to do on the pitch," Dempsey recalls. "I think it's important to have coaches that have been around big players so they're not going to be afraid to put people in their place."

    https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/ne...ying-time-you-need-players-playing-regularly/
     
  3. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    ^^^^^^

    Bit that’s the problem, isn’t it, that Jurgen used his playing career as a distraction from his coaching, like a magician with a beautiful assistant distracting you from what he’s doing with that rabbit and that hat.
     
  4. Deadtigers

    Deadtigers Member+

    Jul 23, 2015
    Independent Republic of the Bronx, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Ghana
    Not to mention this is the problem of American players. Because I'm pretty sure Argentina's coach had achieved SFA before becoming the manager
     
  5. freisland

    freisland Member+

    Jan 31, 2001
    This has (sort of) been my argument for hiring "winning at top level" coaches for a long time - not so much that each of them is necessarily going to win more than a "regular" US coach every tenure - but that they expect a different level of competence from the players and the program, and if we had brought in a steady stream of managers used to being in top tier organizations dedicated to winning, it was more likely that the players and program in general would have notched up a bit to meet the expectations. Reasonably well organized programs like the US - esp once MLS came into existence - are unlikely to get big jumps in team and program quality, absent the appearance of a couple of unicorn players all at once, so the fight most of the time is in the margins. And the best available players, for the most part, are a known quantity. But a coach - and coaching staff - can come from anywhere. I've never understood why we didn't grab them for the best. It's not just not being afraid to put players in their place, it's also not being afraid to demand an organization that does what they believe is needed to win.

    Maybe after Poch we'll get a few more internationally successful coaches and we'll get to see if they have any overall effect on the median quality of the team and its support.
     
  6. Deadtigers

    Deadtigers Member+

    Jul 23, 2015
    Independent Republic of the Bronx, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Ghana
    #7181 Deadtigers, Oct 13, 2024
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2024
    Yeah but the rest of the world function without this issue. Argentina and Brazil are coached by nobodies. The people that are coaching in Europe were not known for having achieved a lot. The Croatian coach, for all his achievements didn't have a prestigious resume I mean neither did Southgate. So when we have the chance to get an an international coach who's done things at a high level that has a record of success we often ignore him, For somebody with a flashier name and more Sizzle.
     
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  7. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Sounds like that is a you problem and not a Deuce problem? Klinsmann's USMNT coaching record is a matter of public record. It can't be hidden or distracted from.
     
  8. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There is no question that getting top-class managers will level up the program in many ways.
     
  9. freisland

    freisland Member+

    Jan 31, 2001
    I'm not sure if this is tongue in cheek or not, but if the point is Scaloni or Junior are "nobodies" - then we've never had (save perhaps Jurgen) a coach that even reached the level of "nobody" - which is, I guess, even worse. While both are mainly domestic products from a coaching standpoint, Junior has two decades of club coaching experience and Scaloni, a pretty controversial an appointment back in the day, still has more player experience and success than any US coach save perhaps Jurgen, so even the "nobodies" other teams hire are used to a much higher - or at least more varied - level of footie expectations and competition. And I'd also suggest Argie and Brazil's programs are a bit more... seasoned... than ours.
     
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  10. Deadtigers

    Deadtigers Member+

    Jul 23, 2015
    Independent Republic of the Bronx, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Ghana
    What about Croatia? I am not pro MLS coaches. I am Pro Bora type coaches. That is what we need. Veteran coaches of the international game, used to having a team made up of players all over with short prep time. This instance on wanting a top level coach makes no sense because it is a club mentality that doesn't transfer over to the international game. How USSF is a disaster and searches for sexy big headline splash picks or a Homer. Nothing in between.
     
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  11. freisland

    freisland Member+

    Jan 31, 2001
    I mean, Junior is the definition of a club coach. I think a BetterBora, esp "back in the day" would have been great. You can always find exceptions and outliers. But generally, the better coaches have deeper football experience of some sort. Sometimes just as a student of the game. But when you are trying to move a program that has reasonable resources, a limited level of player, the easiest place to gain advantage in the coaching, support staff and program structure. The most likely way to improve that is by hiring coaches and staff that have been in, and had some success with, programs with top level coaching, support staff and structure.
     
  12. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Name one that's available.

    Scaloni was either a hugely astute appointment by the AFA or pure luck. His original appointment was unpopular and his contract extension in 2019 widely opposed by fans and in the media. Then he started winning games.

    England have tried everything over the years. Starting with successful club managers, then when they failed, top foreign managers, and when they failed, internal promotions who, in the eyes of England fans, failed.

    Something in common with successful international teams is that they have the best players. For instance in the last 10 or 15 years Croatia, Netherlands, Portugal and Belgium have sort of picked themselves. The coach has to keep them happy and make a few tactical tweaks.

    England has a different problem which is almost too many good players in certain positions. Against Greece you couldn't tell who was the number 10. Everyone was attacking and it left huge gaps in midfield. But if you drop a player or ask Bellingham or Foden to play out of position you risk alienating them. That shouldn't be an issue but it is.

    Pochettino has a different problem. He's not walking into to a settled team full of top international talent. Even if 5 or 6 lock starters are fit he still has glaring deficiencies to fill. If they're not fit he has to settle on who the backup players are and they're not obvious.

    Once he has a settled roster and starting XI then I hope he has the experience to avoid the mistakes Berhalter made in Qatar. Roster errors, lack of tactical flexibility, poor use of substitutes etc, etc (despite which the US did OK in Qatar).
     
  13. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Also Scaloni had Messi, who was Argentina's inspiration in 2022 and 2024.
     
  14. freisland

    freisland Member+

    Jan 31, 2001
    He also had Argentina, which is not the US and is at a bit of a different place on the growth curve, not to mention 300+ games as a professional in England, Spain and Italy and a short stint coaching the U's.
     
  15. Deadtigers

    Deadtigers Member+

    Jul 23, 2015
    Independent Republic of the Bronx, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Ghana
    Messi also wasn't demanding a coach that had won cups before. And done things at a high level.
     
  16. Hararea

    Hararea Member+

    Jan 21, 2005
    The claim that they all failed is a distortion. Whereas some England managers didn't even qualify for major tournaments, others won knockout round games and put up a good fight against superior opposition.

    And obviously, England's pool talent hasn't been constant over time. Expectations for their current team should be higher than they were a decade ago.
     
  17. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    How many trophies have England won since 1996? The minimum expectation is to win a trophy.
     
  18. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well, that’s just delusional then. England is always going to struggle to outperform the 4 European powers with slightly larger populations, and then also Brazil and comparably sized Argentina.

    And what trophy did they win in 1996? Germany won that year IIRC.
     
    Hararea repped this.
  19. Hararea

    Hararea Member+

    Jan 21, 2005
    Guessing he just typo-ed 1966.

    Regardless, your broader point still holds. Here's an example: after England advanced past Argentina and Denmark in 2002, it faced Brazil in the quarterfinals. All over the field, Brazil's talent was just plain better, especially its front three of Rivaldo, Ronaldo, and Ronaldinho. In spite of this, England played them tough in a 2-1 loss.

    Labeling WC02 a coaching failure would be absurd.
     
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  20. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I meant 1966.

    There's no reason England can't compete with the 4 "European powers" as you call them.

    They have far more professional clubs than any other league, at least 115, and therefore more players.

    France wasn't even considered a football nation until the 1980s and Spain took forever to get it's act together.

    As far as England fans are concerned they should be winning every tournament. That's why pretty much every manager is considered a failure.
     
  21. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Again, though, that’s not a reflection on the actual performance of the managers, it’s a reflection on deluded expectations. Any fanbase that expects to win every time is going to be disappointed, and deserves to be miserable, because such a fanbase is very stupid.
     
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  22. An Unpaved Road

    An Unpaved Road Member+

    Mar 22, 2006
    Club:
    --other--
    We need a coach who commands respect and is not afraid to tell a player like Reyna he’s not starting! :eek:
     
  23. MPNumber9

    MPNumber9 Member+

    Oct 10, 2010
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If you look at the landscape of international coaches, they don't have stellar resumes. In that sense, Pochettino probably has the best CLUB resume of any international coach I've seen in awhile. In recent history, that doesn't really matter.

    Proximity to the domestic league, familiarity with the pool and general "vibes" have all been more important than coaching resume. Scaloni coached Argentina's youth teams. Southgate coached England's youth teams. Dalic' coached exclusively in Croatia and Saudi Arabia; lead Croatia to 2nd and 3rd place World Cup finishes. Regragui, who lead Morocco to a 4th place finish, coached exclusively in Morocco. Deschamps is a World Cup winner, yes -- but again coached almost exclusively in France. Low did most of his coaching in Germany / Austria. Last time Brazil won a World Cup, guess where their coach was coaching?

    It follows with the US as well: our best coaches (Arena and Bradley) were accomplished guys from the domestic league.
     
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  24. MPNumber9

    MPNumber9 Member+

    Oct 10, 2010
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What are you basing that opinion on? Can you provide some examples in international soccer, where a team with fixed talent got a big boost from hiring a renowned manager? Why haven't we seen managers with more pedigree in international soccer?
     
  25. freisland

    freisland Member+

    Jan 31, 2001
    Sure: Pekerman/colombia, Japan/Ooft - forward, including Zico, Osim, Aguirre, etc. Colombia was like 50th in the world when Pekerman took over, Japan won the Asia Cup under Ooft for the first time, but just barely failed to qualify for the WC in 94. Since then they've qualified for every WC. Those are two that immediately come to mind.

    It's so weird to me that this is some controversial idea - like, getting coaches who have experience in big international games or with and against top level players - whether from top club or country - is not likely to increase the professional expectations of a program, over time, is what, counterintuitive or?

    and logic out the opposite idea: Not getting top internationally experienced coach and/or coaches experienced coaching with and against the top footie talent in the world is better because ______? I mean, what goes in the blank there?
     
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