*#*#*#*# Off Back To Georgia!

Discussion in 'New York Red Bulls' started by metrocorazon, Oct 15, 2003.

  1. Michael K.

    Michael K. Member

    Mar 3, 1999
    There or Thereabouts
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You know, people have been saying that for a couple years now, about his play both on the Metros and on the National team. At one time, I bought it. Now I've had enough of it - I think it's just a smokescreen. Think about it - if he really was such a great passer, he'd be capable of getting his intentions and his passes in sync with his teammates and their runs. He is the problem, not his teammates and their failure to read his lofty 'intentions', which usually translate into high-risk, low percentage passes that don't pan out. There are other players in this league who have just as much, or more vision when it comes to distributing the ball, and they don't seem to waste nearly as many passes as Clint does now.
     
  2. Vistula

    Vistula New Member

    Jul 2, 2001
    Garfield
    Fair enough, but if you didn't like the gamble on Moreno, then you don't like Eddie Pope either. You don't get Pope for Mike Petke without taking Moreno and his guaranteed contract too.

    The gamble Bob did not make is the one that's hurt this team the most. He'd have been skewered on these boards for trading Mathis for Edson Buddle during the pre-season, but in hindsight, that's Bob's biggest mistake of the year.

    As for wanting Clint to take that final free kick, once again, that's praying for a return to 2000-2001. Has Clint hit a good free kick this year? I'm more miffed that Amado (free kick goal vs. DC in the semi) didn't step up and hit it.

    Mathis was possibly Metro's worst player last night. His feet killed so many potential advantages. One telling play was when he was whistled for off-sides and was in the midst of attempting to chip Thornton from 35 yards with open field in front of him. To me, that's the new Clint. Instead of running at the keeper, he's looking to shoot from distance.

    Jusko was a deadline Hail Mary. Whatever.

    Can't wait to have Clint and Jaime's money back to sign some new attacking players.

    Last night, you see what a team Bob built over five years can do against a team he's built in nine months.
     
  3. Real Ray

    Real Ray Member

    May 1, 2000
    Cincinnati, OH
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well...I think the points re: his passing are fair-it underscores why I would play him always in top. He has changed as a player. He doesn't seem to have the ability to beat people off his dribble like before.

    Having said that though, I think there is a lot to the argument about the players around him. Guevara is our best midfielder, but he can be very up/down and IMO, is very soft. Now take a look at the rest of the midfield...go ahead...I'm waiting...where are the other players? Where is the creativity? Experience? Forget about Mathis for a moment, how many chances were there last night? Look at how we have scored our goals this season.

    The reality of this team is that it has a) little depth and b) is very young-Clark, Woly, Gaven, Magee-I mean come on now. We went through this just a couple of years ago with Faria/Valencia-"let the kid play," I love Faria's energy," "Valencia's a bum." It's too easy to be seduced by youth and energy. The truth is the team is very limited and it's easy to scapegoat Clint Mathis. The problems are deeper. They have this year, been a boring, weak-offensive team that has achieved due to a bit of luck and a lot of scrappy desire.

    On the bus home to the PA last night, I overheard a guy talking to his friend asking, "how can Chicago be a better team?" Well, Bocanegra, Armas, Ralph, Razov, Beasley...

    Mathis has not played well, and his attitude and lack of composure has always been a problem-he's not without blame. But if you're laying this season on his doorstep, I think you're wrong. If it's matter of not fitting into Bradley's system...well, that's a different issue. But I think he's still a talent and I suspect on another team he would be far more productive.
     
  4. mscheffel

    mscheffel New Member

    Jul 29, 1999
    NJ, US
    2 Great points, Real Ray.


    First, Chicago is a hell of a team. Boca, Beasley, et all are fantastic and really read eachother well. If it wasn't a cup final against the Metro, I would have enjoyed their play last night.
    Seacond, while I still say it is time to let Mathis play somewhere else, you know if it is for another MLS team he is going to come back and score 4 in his first game.
     
  5. coramdeo_10036

    Sep 15, 2003
    New York
    Can someone explain to me why Mark Lisi is not starting and playing 90 minutes? This board has correctly assessed the lack of creativity in the midfield- and when Lisi comes in, you have one of the few guys in the MLS who not only sees the non-obvious pass, but has the ball skills to put the rock exactly where he wants it to go. I'm utterly and thoroughly perplexed at how we let Williams play for 80 minutes and Lisi for 10. What the heck is going on??????
     
  6. Metrosuccess

    Metrosuccess Member

    Jan 6, 2000
    NJ
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I brought 4 people to the game last night who were not real MLS fans and their opinion was that they could not believe Clint looks so bad passing the ball. Not only can't he score for like 5 to 6 weeks it seems but this guy is a human soccer turnover waiting to happen. No hustle as he casually walks back to an onsides position at his liesure.
    I don't know who is more of a dog at this point, Clint or Juskslo who should be released immediately and let us cut our losses.

    One of the most boring attacking games I have seen and once again Clint clogs up the midfield holding Amado back from having space to move. Thank Gog Gaven attacks from the midfield like our forwards should or we would have ben really pathetic last night.

    Clint right now is an embarrasment to our National team the way he is playing. Nice move by Bob sitting his lazy butt down at the end.
     
  7. I'm not saying that yanking Clint was a mistake. Clint must have pushed every one of Bradley's buttons last night. Whatever it was, I think Clint is in the Bradley doghouse, maybe for a while.

    Michael K. You have a fair point on Juststandandwait. He was not a highly sought player, although Bob had been tracking him for a while (if you can believe what you read in the papers). He just hasn't been up to the usual high standards of other Eastern Euros discovered by Bradley for MLS.

    Chicago has some big solid defenders, but it was still disappointing to see Juststandandwait, a big boy in his own right, so thoroughly dominated last night.
     
  8. BobtheMetroStars12thman

    Nov 18, 1998
    I've always been a big Mathis supporter. Before the ACL tear, Mathis was the best player this country has ever seen. He was always a goal waiting to happen, took on 2 or 3 defenders at a time and came away with the ball, always heading toward the goal or made the incredible pass that resulted in someone being 1 v 1 on the keeper. He was scoring at an incredible rate, both for Metros and for USA. He made his mark against Brazil and Germany and certainly got both their attention.

    That lasted for about 2-3 seasons then it started going downhill fast. A real flash in the pan.

    I don't know what happened to him but yesterday, he not only played like a poor A-League player, but actually helped the opposition with his passes. One in particular was a dangerous giveaway in the attacking third that resulted in a counter that I was sure would end in a Fire goal. And that was only one of many giveaways.

    I don't know if he actually believes he has a shot at Europe but I just don't see how he can even make a 3rd division English side with the way he's been playing lately.

    This is just awful. The kicker is, I know he has what it takes to be a great player. I just don't believe that someone can lose it so quickly and get to be that bad.

    I hope Bob dumps him after this season and these 2 should go with him:

    Jusko - What a useless waste!
    Williams - A-League material.

    One more side note. As good as Amado is with the ball, his free kicks are garbage most of the time. And I'd like to see Magee take the corners instead of Amado. They are surprisingly good quality and Amado's are usually crap.
     
  9. Metrosuccess

    Metrosuccess Member

    Jan 6, 2000
    NJ
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Though I agree JuskSlow should also go in addition to Clint i do have to say Richie, though not fast or talented does give his all. Maybe keep him as a bench /utility player to bring in when leading in the second half of games to clog things up. Bring him back at a very low salary, but put Ricardo in his position and we will be much better short and longterm. Bob has to make this move next season for us to go forward.
     
  10. Thomas A Fina

    Thomas A Fina Member

    Mar 29, 1999
    Hell
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Who's contract do we have for next year?

    Jusko?
    Moreno? (and folks, pleas keep in mind that if we didn't get Moreno, we don't get Pope.)

    Mathis must go

    Richie Williams must go (even though he played OK last night by his standards)

    Other than that, we have the makings of a pretty OK team. We just can't beat the Fire (who truth be told should pull off the treble this year)

    Oh, and HSG - please please please clean out MFO.

    For next year a 3-5-2:

    Walker
    Pope
    Jolley
    ??????
    Clark
    Lisi
    Guevara
    Edgar
    Gaven (can either Lisi or Gaven play the right side?)
    Magee
    Woly

    And look to add a forward and a defender. (we should have a bit of salary when Mathis goes)
     
  11. coramdeo_10036

    Sep 15, 2003
    New York
    Good point- Richie Williams actually played the best game i've seen out of him. I can only recall a couple of turnovers versus the usual 10-15.

    Still not sure why Mark Lisi is not playing most of the game- anyone have an explanation for that?
     
  12. Brownswan

    Brownswan New Member

    Jun 30, 1999
    Port St. Lucie, FL
    My suggestion is to AEG and MLS. Shut down Metro for 2004. Bring in Chivas San Diego to keep us at 10 teams. Send Bradley to Dallas, and bring Metro back in 2006 when we have the Harrison stadium.

    5k for a championship match? The vast majority of soccer fans would rather stay home and watch matches from Europe and SA. A midweek game in blustery weather didn't stop real fans from piling into Yankee Stadium. While the team breaks the heart of a faithful few Metro fans, the rent of Giants Stadium is breaking the budget.

    Maybe a fresh start in a new stadium is what's needed. As it is, we have fans enough to support an A-League team -- and we looked like an A-League team last night -- one at mid-table.

    Of course, that won't happen. At this point my only suggestion for the remainder of the season is to sit Mathis, and don't renew his contract. Let him go to whoever wants him.
     
  13. red&black1

    red&black1 New Member

    Mar 8, 2003
    Kearny NJ

    I dont like that idea at all.... We come so close to actually winning something and now u want the team to be shut down???
     
  14. Metrogo

    Metrogo Member

    Apr 6, 1999
    Washington Hghts NY
    Does this explain why Mathis doesn't actually play forward, and is routinely in his half of the pitch trying to collect the ball? I'm not defending Mathis, but if no one can get him the ball in a dangerous position, what is he supposed to do out there?
     
  15. Metrosuccess

    Metrosuccess Member

    Jan 6, 2000
    NJ
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    When was the last time anyone remembers Clint running forward into space so the mids can pass him the ball going forward. All I ever see is clint coming back and receiving the ball with his back to the goal or trucking slowly back to the midfield and receiving the ball and doing a cute one touch pass either back to a defender or midfelder and simply standing and still not going forward after the one-touch for a possible give and go. That is , of course when the oppostion does not steal his pass , which right now is over 50% of the time.
     
  16. Metrogo

    Metrogo Member

    Apr 6, 1999
    Washington Hghts NY
    I'm not disputing this, it's a chicken or the egg argument. But I do suggest that if Mathis thought he could get the ball into space, he might be running into it. The glory is in the scoring, and one would guess that a lazy forward would expend his minimal energy on going forward to score, not backwards.
     
  17. Metrosuccess

    Metrosuccess Member

    Jan 6, 2000
    NJ
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Unless that forward is so frustrated with his inability to score or he feels he is such a complete player that he wants to play midfield. What does he have this year, one assist for all the dropping back and cute passes he tries??

    I think Clint is scared to miss opportunities so he comes back more and more. Just my gut feeling here but I could be wrong. Your point has validity though.
     
  18. Matrim55

    Matrim55 Member+

    Aug 14, 2000
    Berkeley
    Club:
    Connecticut
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Gaven is, IMHO, a natural winger. He's at his best when given room to roam, so the right side of a 3-5-2 is perfect for him. It also allows Lisi and Clark to play deep central roles, and Guevara to focus exclusively on creating chances (and no so much on distribution, which is Lisi's forte).

    As you point out, finding the third central defender is priority #1. One little fantasy that plays in my head revolves around the two allocations we'll have in the offseason (one for Howard, the other for Mathis): I think we should trade it to DCU for Stokes and Eskandarian. Hudson is certainly stupid enough to do it, and either one of those guys is worth an allocation IMHO - Stokes more than Eski, certainly, but when you look at what allocations get you these days, I'd be happy with either.

    That would leave as the Metro 16 for game-days:

    Walker

    Stokes - Pope - Jolley

    Clark

    Gaven - Lisi - Barto

    Guevara

    Woly - Magee

    Grafer
    Addo
    Regan
    Eski
    Leitch

    I'd be happy with that.

    Lisi's got a bum ankle - hasn't played since his miracle chip to Magee at DC three weeks ago. He was limping noticably during pre-game.
     
  19. cmonaco

    cmonaco New Member

    Feb 21, 1999
    Montreal/NYC
    I say this as a long time Clint-defender and as someone who still thinks he has something to offer to this team, and even to the national side, if he gets his head back in the game:

    It's time for Clint to sit.

    His lack of excecution, but more importantly, total lack of effort last night was nothing new. But the fact that this has gone on for months now, and that it took place during the OPEN CUP FINAL, is inexcusable.

    I refuse to believe the guy has lost it physically. He doesn't look like he's huffing and puffing out there. He just refuses to run. Hangs out in the back without playing any defense or on the far right sideline, refusing to involve himself in the flow of the offense. Doesn't move at all off the ball. When he gets the ball, he only tries to draw a foul, dribble through someone unsuccessfully, or pass to someone unsuccessfully (and often right to the other team). When he loses the ball, he continues to stand around, often in an offsides position.

    And for anyone who says Clint would have been helpful on that last free kick, keep in mind that before the match he was taking practice kicks from pretty much the same distance on Kenny Arena (I think) in goal. Of about a dozen attempts, he got only one or two on goal. And i think Kenny saved at least one, maybe both of them.

    We all know the man is mercurial, but I really thought he'd step up with a trophy on the line. The fact that he refused to, or wasn't able to, speaks volumes.

    Whoever said that we need the 2002 WC version of Clint back is right. And to think people were criticizing him then for not being the 2000 Metro version of Clint.

    And I've said diferently before, but I now believe we're better off with Gaven, Lisi, Guevara, Magee, and Wolyniec in the main offensive roles.

    As we gear up for the playoffs, Clint will be useful off the bench at the 60th minute. But for now, he needs to look deep inside himself and ask why he was booed off the pitch for the first time ever at Giants Stadium. It wasn't because he didn't score a goal. It was because he played with no heart.
     
  20. soccerfan

    soccerfan BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 13, 1999
    New Jersey
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I been telling you guys for months that Clint is an ass , and this is his last year here. I am glad everyone finaly sees it as it is , he was at his worst last night, people were yelling from the stands at Bradley to take him out of the game.
     
  21. ElJefe

    ElJefe Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 16, 1999
    Colorful Colorado
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Not only Kreis, but we were also missing five other starters (Nhleko, Davis, Vaca, Thomas, Bonseu) due either to injury or callup.

    So I'm not too torn up that we played so negatively.
     
  22. Vistula

    Vistula New Member

    Jul 2, 2001
    Garfield
    It's pretty freaking funny that some people are clamoring for a guy who's missed two huge pk's at home to take that final free kick. Pretty funny.
     
  23. StillKickin

    StillKickin Member+

    Austin FC
    Dec 17, 2002
    Texas
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Watching it on Fox last night, the announcers made it sound like the fans were booing Bradley for taking out Mathis. So those of you who were there, was the booing for Mathis or Bradley?
     
  24. beenasoccerfan

    Jun 28, 2002
    Houston
    No kidding and if he's hated so much why, according to the announcers, were fans booing when he was pulled?
     
  25. MUNCUFAN

    MUNCUFAN New Member

    Apr 13, 2003
    Northern NJ
    Mathis.
     

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