ODP......Again

Discussion in 'Youth & HS Soccer' started by irod, Dec 6, 2004.

  1. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

    Jun 23, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    Club soccer calendar runs August 1st - July 31s. Your January kid will be smack in the middle, your May kids will face an uphill battle.

    ODP calendar runs January 1st - December 31st. Your January kid is golden, while your May kids are in the middle of the pack.

    Hey, it could be worse. July is the only month that land in the bottom half of both calendars. Stupid kid.
     
  2. CCTX SoccerFreak

    CCTX SoccerFreak New Member

    Jan 5, 2005
    Corpus Christi,TX


    Cool...

    now I get it..thanks...

    It just didn't make sense until I saw the date thing...thanks a lot!
     
  3. Bird1812

    Bird1812 New Member

    Nov 10, 2004
    Kennie, count your blessings. The kids in Massachusetts don't even get the opprtunity the weak group of Illinois gets.

    Isn't it interesting that it so obvious and there is plenty written on the late bloomers and still the Powers-That- Be ignore the potential that may be out there? Even more interesting by the fact that there are certainly plenty of parents willing to foot the bill, yet there is still no desire to increase the pool of potential players, who given a year or two, might make the diffference in what the US is capable of producing in terms of top level soccer players.
     
  4. Karl K

    Karl K Member

    Oct 25, 1999
    Suburban Chicago
    I think the Powers-that-Be know all it about it...but are really Power-less-to-be.

    Why?

    The idea is to pick the best players at that time. And the best players are those who mature early, reach puberty quickly.

    It happens everywhere in the world, not just here.
     
  5. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

    Jun 23, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    You know, I actually think ODP at U10 would work better at talent identification than ODP at U14, when diverging puberties screw up everything. People laugh, but I'm not sure I'm wrong.

    It gets sorted out by U16, I suppose.
     
  6. Celtic3

    Celtic3 New Member

    Apr 5, 2004
    The sad fact is that if Maradona,Pele,Garrincha etc had been born in America they would not have made the ODP cuts

    Maradona was born Oct 30th ...... so he was a "Young 1960"... Strike 1
    He was not 6 ft tall... Strike 2
    He was poor............ Strike 3

    Pele was born Oct 23rd .............so he was a "young 1940" Strike !
    He was not 6 ft tall... Strike 2
    He was poor.............Strike 3

    Garrincha was born Oct 28th ......so he was a "young 1933" Strike 1
    He was not 6 ft tall ...Strike 2
    He was poor.............Strike 3

    So for all you coaches out there scan your rosters for small kids born in late October who aren't from rich families !
     
  7. Karl K

    Karl K Member

    Oct 25, 1999
    Suburban Chicago
    Well, I don't think that would have been the case.

    Their exceptional talent would have been obvious to any observer, just like Freddy, an '89 B-day, was the key guy on an '86 U17 team.

    Identifying those guys is easy; even an idiot like me can do it.

    No, where the system falls down is that it excludes, by default, a great swath of players who COULD be very good pros, or even top national teamers, but are shunted aside solely by virtue of their birthday/ late maturing physique.
     
  8. Celtic3

    Celtic3 New Member

    Apr 5, 2004
    Karl:Look the truth is that if it was based on pure talent Illinois ODP would have way more Mexican or South American kids on their team.Many people cannot afford to participate on a good quality travel team never mind shell out another $1200 for ODP.If you pay you get the chance to play.ODP will throw in the token scholarship player occasionally but don't kid yourself it is a gesture.
     
  9. DoctorD

    DoctorD Member+

    Sep 29, 2002
    MidAtlantic
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Is that because the Mexican and South American kids naturally are good at soccer? Is this like how only black people (and Joe Zawinul) are really good at jazz?
     
  10. Karl K

    Karl K Member

    Oct 25, 1999
    Suburban Chicago
    Four things.

    First, I don't know how things are in other states, but I give credit to the Illinois Youth Soccer Association; they have a pretty good outreach program to the Hispanic community, and a number of top flight Hispanic kids have moved/are moving through the ODP program here.

    Second, given that, I am skeptical that Illinois is somehow missing some huge pool of players from the Hispanic community in ODP. I just don't buy it. Kids who are excellent get uncovered; I know, I've seen it. And guess what? There are always financial dispensations for kids who need it.

    Third, of course, there are politics in everything, and money does drive ODP. But if a Hispanic kid is really good, guess what? He's on it.

    Fourth, there is this tendency on the part of some who bemoan the "lack of" Hispanic participation to have what I would call a paternalistic approach. Meaning that they beleive, either implicitly or explicitly, the powers-that-be need to somehow pluck out these future Tab Ramos' types, and completely pave the way for them. I am sorry, once again, I don't buy it. There has to be energy and effort on the other side; there has to be some two-way street obligations here. Really, it's condescending; the Hispanic community is not some huddled mass of the barefoot and ignorant. They know about the world of Anglo soccer. They need to opt in. Frankly, if they decide not to opt in, that's their choice.
     
  11. Celtic3

    Celtic3 New Member

    Apr 5, 2004
    Who said anything about being naturally better??????????
    No Doctor D it's because a majority of them grow up in a soccer crazy background just as I did in Europe.They love the game.They are in a culture that elevates the game and it players.They are from a culture where playing a pickup game of football(note real football not American football)is preferable to playing Nintendo for hours on end and the more you play the better you get.They "play" while the "anglo's" train and I'm a believer that it's better to play than train.The trained teams play formulaic soccer wheras most hispanic teams play natural soccer with dazzling flashes of skill.I know which type of soccer I prefer to watch.I would like to see the top 4 teams in each age division of Copa Chicago granted an automatic berth in the Illinois State Cup.Those who run the pay to play outfits would probably hate this idea as it would show up their deficiencies and I would bet that the Copa crew would decimate most opponents.I just think there is too much separation between the hispanics team and anglo teams and I think that while the reasons may be economic and cultural but I believe that the biggest problem is structural,and since you brought up the race issue name one top level majority black soccer team in Illinois youth soccer........I won't hold my breath waiting for your reply.
     
  12. Bill Archer

    Bill Archer BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 19, 2002
    Washington, NC
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    I think you need to clarify this: USYSA carding procedures use the August 1 - July 31 calendar.

    I believe US Club, on the other hand, uses a January 1 system.

    So for example in Super Y, it would be different, since Super Y teams are carded through US Club.
     
  13. Celtic3

    Celtic3 New Member

    Apr 5, 2004
    Super Y tried the Jan 1 through Dec and gave up because it created too many problem for participating clubs,looks like we're stuck with the high school age guidelines.
     
  14. aragrev

    aragrev New Member

    Apr 23, 2004
    Southern California
    Cal South out here in California uses the July31- August 1 out here. They have talked about switching over to the FIFA year, but haven't yet.
     
  15. aragrev

    aragrev New Member

    Apr 23, 2004
    Southern California
    I think it says a lot to grow up in household and culture that emphasizes soccer, but when you get to older levels here in Cal South, it pretty much evens out with the color of the players. The top level 15-18 teams here, some national champions have a good mix of players, so it is not primarily Hispanic. Although I do agree that growing up in the culture that breathes soccer would be great, as my sons are 1/2 and 1/2(Colombian and me norte americano).
     
  16. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

    Jun 23, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    There is no outreach at the younger ages for Illinois ODP, and consequently, virtually no Hispanic players.

    I gather that the state makes more an effort at the older ages.
     
  17. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

    Jun 23, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    I don't believe that anybody in U.S. plays with January 1st deadline, aside from ODP programs.
     
  18. kennie

    kennie Member

    Mar 4, 2005
    Yes, they (the yougens) had the opportunity. My son has enjoyed the challenge of play and meeting other boys with a passion for soccer. BUT all I can say is that I feel like I have been held upside down and my pockets shaken empty. Illinois has to be one of the biggest money makers in the ODP business.
     
  19. Karl K

    Karl K Member

    Oct 25, 1999
    Suburban Chicago
    And appropriately so, as you have discovered that younger age ODP events have much more of a revenue generating purpose than an identification purpose.
     
  20. Smashfoot

    Smashfoot New Member

    Feb 25, 2005
    Well, I must say ODP has worked out for my daughter. Here in my part of Nor Cal, players first try out for the district team. All are invited by mail, and it costs $25. The players who make the district team, practice on and off for a few months and then there are two playdays amongst the district teams, and these games are observed and the best players are selected to try out for the state team. It costs $25 to try out for the state team. If you make the state team, you don't have to try out for the district team again next year, you are automatically invited to state tryouts the following year.

    I did not observe any political bs, the players who were selected appeared to me to be the best players. At least the starting 11, it gets harder to tell the difference between #20 and #30. It costs $250 to attend regional camp, and then another $250 if you are invited to stay over the 2nd week. Scholarships are available from league and district funds.

    With regard to Oregon, it is not surprising that few Oregon players make the regional team. You have a much smaller population than Cal South and Cal North. Oregon teams have never been competitive at really good tournaments I've attended. However, the ODP program to emulate is Washington's. Go to the regional site and look at the ODP championship results. Washington fared very well, better than Cal North, and their population is closer to Oregons than it is to Cal North.

    I know of one player who I consider the most talented offensive player in Cal North. Yet ODP coaches routinely do not value her. She is a dribbler, sometimes she loses the ball, but she creates more chances for herself and her teammates than anyone on the field. "Oh, the big, fast defenders in ODP won't let her do all that dribbling." they say. Big fast defenders create problems for all forwards. Just as really good dribblers can create problems for big fast defenders. But its the April Heinrichs philosophy, that strength and toughness is more important than creativity and skill. But don't confuse soccer preferences with political bs. I don't think her failure to advance has anything to do with politics, its a reflection of what the coaches value.

    And for everyone complaining about Hispanic boys being left out of ODP, how about Hispanic girls being left out of youth soccer altogether? Anybody have a problem with that?
     
  21. Smashfoot

    Smashfoot New Member

    Feb 25, 2005
    However, my above messages apply to CYSA ODP. The Y League ODP team from Cal North appeared to be entirely political. The players were selected by observation of league games, or something like that. One club, who happened to provide the coach, was, shall we say, over-represented.
     
  22. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

    Jun 23, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    That's a shame, but beyond the power of us gringos to fix.
     
  23. aragrev

    aragrev New Member

    Apr 23, 2004
    Southern California
    Some of the complaints I here down in Cal South are that ODP is political, but people are hoping that the PDP program will find the talent without the politics. Either way Cal South is the king of US club soccer.
     
  24. glasgowceltic

    glasgowceltic New Member

    Jan 12, 2005
    Cranhill
    Agree with your 1st point. Unfortunately Scottish kids are spending lots of time playing PS2, XBOX etc. and Scotlands world ranking reflects that.

    A couple of the best youth Hispano league teams in Chicago have several gringos on their roster.

    My sons team is integrated.
     
  25. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

    Jun 23, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    SoCal was highly segregated 10 years ago, highly integrated today. At Surf Cup, most of the SoCal teams will be blended white & Hispanic (not many black kids in the Southern Cal game), as opposed to one or the other.

    As usual, Chicago follows a Coast trend a bit later. Your club is leading that charge ... OK, it's not yet a charge, more like the early, tentative steps.
     

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