ODP......Again

Yes, that would be the assumption.

Take Oregon. OK, Oregon has only 20% of the people of SoCal, so we expect about 20% as many Regional ODP candidates. I gather the actual percentage is less. Why?

One answer could be that SoCal clubs have the power in the ODP process. I believe this is at least part of the true answer.

Another answer might be that the Oregon kids are at a significantly lower level. Which makes sense. Take two 10 year old players of equal skills and genetics, in this case both very high. In SoCal, that kid is going to find his way to Celtic or Barcelona or Arsenal or Surf. He's going to play with good teammates, he's going to play in a league where every team is strong enough to win the best Oregon tournaments, he's going to have the expectation that if he is to be a star, he's gotta kick those guys' butts. Whereas your kid in Oregon, he's a damn local legend. Scores 2 goals per game. Coach smiles, pats him on the head, and says, "Now there's a real talent."

Which kid do you think will be the better 15 year old?

That is the second answer. It is the same answer as to why the U.S. with 300 million people isn't as good as Holland with 10 million people. Because great soccer players come from great soccer cultures. Places where the best young players are constantly challenged to be better yet.

I think this is indeed part of the truth. SoCal has a great youth soccer culture. Oregon does not.

Which is the greater factor, the inequities of the system or the superiority of the soccer culture? You got me.

 

i think this is true, but it doesn't mean players in oregon or for that matter washington can't be trained by a quality club and end up at this higher level. It's all about the club you pick, and then how you as a parent choose to take advantage of the club offerings.

I admit Cal-South is a great example of league play, but I'm guessing they miss more quality ODP kids than most states. ODP isn't perfect. PIck a good club.

 

That said, it's instructive how many of the top young players did not come from top clubs or top talent areas. Yes Donovan was from So. Cal, but he was a little gringo kid from the Inland Empire playing on a Hispanic team. Kid liked Soccer, so his mom dropped him off with all of the Mexican kids and let him play. He was essentially the Professor.

More distinctly: DaMarcus came from the soccer hotbed of Fort Wayne, Indiana. Eddie Johnson's from the projects in Florida. Clint Dempsey's from out where God lost his sandals. Justin Mapp is from that soccer Mecca of Mississippi. Clint Mathis's family were extras in Deliverance. Josh Wolff is from a more gentrified part of Georgia, but it's still Georgia.

What you'll notice in a lot of these cases is that when the youth teams started up, most of those guys were way off the radar (including Beasley who benefited from the attention his brother was getting) and then as time passed, they moved up the ranks.

In a sense I think there might be ways in which being the local god of soccer is very beneficial to a player's development. If you notice Beasley, Johnson, Dempsey, Mapp and Mathis are five of the American players most likely to go at somebody off the dribble. To a man they all love doing it. It may very well be that being able to blitzkrieg any and all local opposition encourages playera to develop these sorts of critical individual skills, whereas the top players playing on the big club teams are constantly needing to go balls-out 100% team soccer to win, and if they don't, they hear about it from just about everybody. Imagine Dempsey's youth coach chewing him out for not passing. What's he gonna do, tell Dempsey that he's not more important than everyone else on the team? Everyone knows that's not the case. (I believe when he got older he made a seriously long commute into Dallas for a year before going to College).

I don't disagree with the general point. There are things in all of their games that could be better. Mapp doesn't play a shred of defense. Beasley still has trouble crossing and only has one gear which is mostly good but a little bad. Mathis, we're well aware if his issues. Dempsey hasn't shown a whole lot of weaknesses yet except an inability to convert penalties and a penchant for dangerous challenges. Most of these things could have been learned at a more sophisticated level of club ball.

So in five years, are we going to be talking about Kiki Willis from Youngstown, Ohio and how refreshing it is to see young players like him go at defenders?

Kiki, by the way, is a two time high school All-American and a graduate of the Soccer in the Streets program. Want to see first hand what some of the problems this country faces in identifying and developing talent? Have a look at this thread:

http://www.jjhuddle.com/discus/messages/36104/268676.php

My favorite part is when they're discussing whether he's worth offering a scholarship to at a big Div. 1 school (remember, two time high school All-American) and the following quote appears. "He always wants the ball but doesn't look to defend as a forward, which isn't well received at the major college level."

Somewhere along the line we developed the idea that youth forwards who want the ball are a bad thing. Oh so much work yet to be done...

 

This is a bit of a myth, according to an interview I saw with Donovan. His team was mixed. By no means was Donovan the token gringo, in fact it's not clear to me that the Hispanic players were the majority.

Landon also landed with one of the best youth coaches (and youth clubs) pretty early, by U13 or so.

? I recall one of the DCU/Uva national coaching insiders saying that he watched EJ as a 10 year old in Maryland ... Mathis and Wolff played in comfortable Atlanta suburbs, which is pretty much the mainstream as far as youth soccer is concerned.

Beasley, Dempsey, and Mapp I'll give you.

Good points and I absolutely agree, especially with Beasley. Landon was competing against high-level clubs early, while DMB was smoking 'em in the country leagues. Guess which guy learned to pass quickly and which guy learned to dribble with abandon?

Although we can take this argument to the extreme. When I was raised (and this holds true of your generation too, to a lesser extent), every good player was a local god, because there weren't any good teams & good competitions. We didn't exactly produce a generation of Peles this way.

The youth programs of the U.S. aim to produce a nation of midfielders. Not a bad thing, actually. Probably no worse than seeking to produce a nation of forwards, and better than a nation of defenders. But every approach has a drawback or two.

 

Perhaps we should encourage the showboating of dribbling like the Slam dunking in Basketball. Its not that you got passed some its that you schooled them as you did it.

 

Not a bad idea. For the most part, we're like England. When they lose the ball, the "flash" players are mercilessly mocked by the coaches, parents, and teammates. And since being flash means often losing the ball, they are constantly mocked.

I saw a great quote the other day by some professional defender. He was asked what the best forwards he played against had in common. I'm paraphrasing the answer, but it went something like, "The best guys were those who lost the ball the most. The guys who didn't take chances were easy."

 

One would think this to be true....and identified as a problem if a particular State is not producing. However, this doesn't seem to be the case. Found out tonight that the Iowa 92 YOP girls squad has two Missourri players on the roster?! How in the heck does that happen? Is there not regulations about players residing in the State they play ODP for? If not, why not take my kid to tryouts in South Dakota where they don't have enough show up to field a full roster? Ridiculous.

 

I played for the NY State West ODP State Pool, State Team, and went to the Region 1 Camp but didn't make the Region 1 Pool about 5 years ago. I can say from experience, in my state, that playing for a big club is essential for many reasons:

First of all, the big clubs have almost all (95%) of the best players in the state. I would argue my club had all the best players in my area, and that no other local team in our district (i.e. 6 districts in our state association) had anyone that could play for our team, as basically we had a club that took the best players from other clubs year after year until eventually by u-15 or so we had them all. That means day in and day out you are practicing and playing with the best players possible. It meant we had players who had to drive an hour or more each way to practice, but it was what was needed in order to truly have the best possible team. So I'd say that being from a big club tells the ODP coaches that you made the club team via presumably tryouts that were more extended than the ODP ones and that you were good enough to stay on the club. For some clubs, that alone means you are among the top 30 players in the state.

So if you say you played on a good club team, that is great, but my question is: how good? Saying you were the best in the "league" is fine, but how about State Cup? That is where the best teams play, and the best team from each state generally wins the State Cup. My club team won 4 State Cups while I played for them, yet we didn't participate in any leagues because there wasn't any good local competition. We just played tournaments and traveled a lot. That is how most top clubs operate too, only playing in top tournies. So I could foresee someone who plays for a team that competes in a league in their state and their team wins the league, yet doesn't ever win state cup because there are other teams in the state that don't play in that league and only end up playing against your club during state cup, and these teams are really good and beat yours. Well I think that happens all across the country...which is why it is essential, ODP or not, that you play for the best possible club team you can, as that is where all your development will occur and it will open all kinds of doors for you with college scholarships etc. if your team wins the state cup every year and goes to regionals/nationals and gets that kind of exposure. Just because of the team I played for I got multiple offers from colleges for scholarships, and we got to play in tournies like the "college coaches showcase" in which only state champion teams were invitied, and basically you are scouted by top college coaches every game. You just can't get those opportunities unless you are willing to do what it takes to play for the best team in your state/area.

But back to ODP, yes I'd say that when my club started winning state cup, lots of players from my team made the state pool, whereas before we won our first state cup, we only had maybe 3 or 4 players on the state pool. It is instant recognition to be on the best team in the state, and the coaches will look at you more just for that. I was passed over one year (the year before our first state cup win) and didn't even make the state pool. I felt like I should've, like I was better than many many players who made the pool, and that I just didn't get a fair look (a feeling many players have when not picked, I'm sure). The next year, my club team won state cup, and subsequently I noticed at state ODP tryouts I was looked at much more and was put on the "good" teams for scrimmages etc., despite really not doing much more than the year before. It was interesting that the other players who were usually on the state team starting passing me the ball a lot more after they knew what club team I played for, so I'm sure going into ODP tryouts as a complete stranger to both coaches and other players makes it a lot harder. So anyways, that year I made the state pool, and then went to all the state pool practices (which are basically an extended tryout to make the state team). Once here, though, I think you get a much fairer look because there are only 30 or so players and the coaches see a lot of you over the course of 4- 10 practices (which are a bitch to drive to). I got picked and made the state team and went on to the regional camp where it is just like the state odp tryouts all over again as far as being a stranger and unknown to the coaches, but at least you have your state teamates who know you and will pass you the ball. The regional camp was just a bunch of full sided games of our state against other states, I think 4 games. There are so many players and so many games that the coaches definitely have some preformed bias, they have to. I could tell by the large fluctuation in coaches/scouts who'd show up for each game, depending on which states were playing. But every game would have at least one or two scouts, so I can't say that if you did something amazing on the field you'd not be noticed no matter what, that's not the case. Regardless, even here, your own state team's coach's recommendation of you is very important for you to get a further look from regional coaches in the "night games" where the top 45 or 50 players get to play each other in front of all the coaches (so basically you have to stand out in your regular games to get picked for a night game, and from there you have to be better than average to make the regional pool).

All in all, ODP has lots of politics, which I've experience from both sides. I do think that a player with great abilities, who is national team caliber, will not be passed up by state coaches for the state pool/teams. Politics are a convenience for the state coaches as they allow them to focus on players who are already proven to be of quality, but if someone else is out there of equal or better quality and is making it obvious that they deserve to be on the team, they will get picked.

 

No, there are not. You may register your kid for South Dakota, Alaska, or West Virginia if you so desire. However, you are only permitted to select a single state.

Like everything else with ODP, there are asterisks attached because ODP at the state level consists of 50 fiefdoms. The State Office just to the north of me in Wisconsin is hostile to the notion of cross-state transfers, while Illinois is not. Just one example.

 

Ronaldo -

Thanks for the detailed description. That matches what I have heard elsewhere.

 

Just an interesting observation as I have gone back and reviewed the posts on this thread. POLITICS. Its in the thread from beginning to end with every state. Shame. Too many parents in organized soccer trying to do whats best for their own player and not whats best for the pool, state, region etc. There are many posts about top level players missing the pool or missing the region team because of the connections some clubs and coaches have at the region level or with the region coaches. Shame again. I have 2 playes in ODP and both either make it or don't based on their skills and abilities. Not because of who I know. Maybe I should start kissing ass like some of these other folks.
Not in my make up.
I only hope the regional and national coaches and staff do what is right, not because of what some parent has given to the sport.

Merry Christmas.

 

It's as much about politics as you might be lead to believe. It's a convenient excuse.

There are times when more skilled players will be passed over because they do not exhibit the type of qualities a coach is looking for. Perhaps the never pass the ball. Or don't move off of it. Or were given an instruction/suggestion at a tryout and failed to follow it. Maybe their attitude on the field or towards their teammates weren't very good. And perhaps the coaches made a maistake. The process of picking players is not perfect.

You never hear a kid or parent say "I wasn't good enough on that day". It's always someone else's fault. That's too easy.

If you didn't make it, ask the coach for some feedback as to why, and go work on your game. Get better. That's a great way to impress a coach.

 

Good Points.
And some coaches at the region level are very picky about their own pet skill sets. I saw a girl at the region 1 camp this year at age 13 that was absolutely on fire. Top skill set, tenacity, rate of play, maturity and vision on the field that was well above the age group. According to sources she was a topic of discussion every night at the round table. Interesting that she did not make the pool.
The region coaches comment, "Too small". Can you even believe that. With todays athletes, thats like saying "she has blonde hair".
Hopefully her state coaches will step up this year.
My point. Its all a crap shoot even with top talent if the state, region or national coach is fussy about a skill set or physique.

Good post.

The Phantom.........

 

ODP is an '80s vestige name. Ignore it.

It's not. The name is effectively a lie.

Don't know what that means. If you intend by that, the notion that ODP favors white, upper-class kids ... I dunno. The white, upper-class kid who I know who attended the '91 National camp said that about 20%, maybe even 25% of the attendees were black -- meaning that black kids were greatly favored, given that they are almost surely less than 10% of the overall mix in competitive youth soccer.

(Not hard to see what ODP was all about with that one. This boy said, "They were all big and they all could fly.")

A useful idea.

 

HiFi, blaming this on MLS is utterly naive. As you and others have proposed, the critical phase for skill development is between 9 and 13. There is no, repeat NO, institution in the United States in which 9 -13 yo kids sign professional contracts wherein they are bound to a corporation and forfeit "freedom of choice". Not in soccer. Not in basketball. Not in hockey. Not in other sports. Not in music. Not in the Army. Not in anything.

Maybe this system is acceptable in Brazil or Everton, but it is totally alien to the US. So we need to find a different solution.

 

Good post. I wholely agree.

I think that 95% of the time, the whole "politics" thing is just sour grapes from kids or their parents who didn't get picked.

I've been involved in ODP and top club soccer for years (see my above post) as a player. I have never, ever seen a player of regional pool quality fail to make a state team. Sure I have seen players who could've been on the state team not make it, but that is not necesarily because of politics. Coaches' mistakes/lack of observation time of the players is the most common reason for this in my opinion.

Nonetheless, lots of players who get cut are often approximately as good as the average to below average players who make the team, but rarely (and in my observation, never) are they clearly better by any significant margin.

If you are good enough you'll make the team. ODP is not this vast conspiracy against players who don't play for major club teams. Rather, ODP is a selection system which naturally tends to give the benefit of the doubt to players who have proven themselves with the better clubs. It is only natural, and often required considering the limited time and information the coaches actually have to pick their team.

 

I don't agree with you.

Obviously I am aware that there is no"institution in the United States in which 9 -13 yo kids sign professional contracts wherein they are bound to a corporation and forfeit "freedom of choice". First of all if you read my opinions on youth soccer, you'll know that I believe the US is way behind in young player development. Secondly, you don't understand how youth players are tied to clubs in Europe. No player can sign a contract until they are 16 years old. Up until then, the players are offered spots at an Academy in the same way that they are here. They are free to leave when they want, and the club can cut the player when it feels it cannot develop the player any further. I'm a huge fan of the way it's done in Europe, and I've been fortunate enough to be exposed to the English system on a variety of levels. But saying that it isn't going to work here is a defeatist attitude. Are you suggesting we leave the system alone because that is the way we've always done it? Better to ask "How do we make it more like it is in Europe?"

I'm not blaming the MLS for not developing youth players, just pointing out that the system in which the league allocates players is not compatible with local teams developing local youth players. Please do not act as if I am accusing or attacking MLS on this issue. This is a case of you reading something into my post that is clearly not there.

As for hockey, basketball, other sports, music, etc: They all do a much better job nuturing young talent than we do in soccer. They have high level coaching and competition. In the case of music, swimming, & gymnastics, every talented young person seeks out and gets a professional coach/trainer to train 5 days per week. I don't see that very often with our most talented young soccer players often enough.

 

As for hockey, basketball, other sports, music, etc: They all do a much better job nuturing young talent than we do in soccer. They have high level coaching and competition. In the case of music, swimming, & gymnastics, every talented young person seeks out and gets a professional coach/trainer to train 5 days per week. I don't see that very often with our most talented young soccer players often enough.[/QUOTE]

No question about it... At premier level U16 Cal South my son practiced twice a week with his team for a couple of hours per session, and then would often play multiple matches over a weekend on reduced sized pitches. He has trialed with several U19 teams in England & Scotland since July, and has remarked upon the completely different culture and training philosophy of the UK academy system. He trains every day of the week for as much as 6 to 7 hours a day...mostly drills and skills, with occassional scrimmages with the reserve squad. Matches on weekends are 90 minute games played on full sized pitches, with FIFA substitution rules and they play just once a weekend. Since the whole point of joining an academy is to find entrance onto the first team squad, matches are far less about stuffing the other club four nil than they are about the individual player consistently demonstrating to management that they have what it takes to play professionaly.
I'm one of those "Sour grapes" parents whose kid was never considered for ODP, despite years of top flight club soccer and frequent unbiased accolades regarding his abilities. With zero college interest in him and no viable American opportunities available, he decided he wanted to try and become accepted into a profesional academy. As of yet he has not reached that goal, and remains a "trialist," but the past six months immersion into the career approach to developing young footballers has enabled him to reach a peak of fitness and confidence on the ball that would have remained elusive had he stayed playing youth soccer in California.

 

matko is in charge at region II because its profitable for him and it gives him the opportunity to recruit for the magic.

 

Okay, from an ODP perspective no one is talking about a major issue. BIRTHDAY ! My son is a late December 1990. He has made the "young" Illinois 1990 state team last year. Yet he knows after regionals this year, his ODP days are over. He can not physically compete against the older 1990's (u15s) as a smaller u-14. Most of the other U-14s on the team are talking the same way. There are some great "young" guys on this team but realistically, maybe only 3-5 will make it on the 1990 state team when they drop to one team. Illinois I think has done a disservice to the kids by doing it this way. They get the kids involved for 2 years and then they are thrown in to compete at the generic age level. In hindsight I don't think we would have wasted our money for the last few years. The younger boys are just basically SOL if they haven't hit puberty by this time. Currently, for ODP training, Illinois runs 2 older '90 teams (U-15) and 2 younger '90 teams (u-14). In a recent match the weaker young '90s u-14 played against the Indiana 1991 "A" squad. This pretty much was a u-14 v u-14 match. Illinois won 8-1 with their weakest team, yet these poor baby 1990's have nowhere to go and the weaker 1991s will have the whole world open to them. Just my 2 cents.

 

Hah! I am infamous for my tedious writings on this subject.

Not much to say except that you're correct. Did you know that when the U.S. selected 34 '91s to tour Mexico in January, not a single one of those 34 kids was born in October, November, or December?

Actually, you fold two issues into one - a) Birthdate, b) Early puberty vs. late puberty. Combine them such that you have a December birthdate and are late maturing ... yeah, you're toast.

Look on the bright side. My son is a July birthday. At least the Decembers get to play a while before getting screwed. Julys officially become history as 7 year olds, when they show up to U9 tryouts (yes, a July birthday is 7 at the time of a U9 tryount) and get their asses beat by the big, bad December kids who are 8 months older than them.

 

I have 3 boys one born January 9th other May 1st and other May 23rd. how are they going to fair? I just don't understand the b-day thing. Please excuse my ignorance....