ODP......Again

Discussion in 'Youth & HS Soccer' started by irod, Dec 6, 2004.

  1. irod

    irod New Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    Pacific Coast
    What do different states do for determining who makes their state's ODP teams? What I am looking for is some insight into how this process works in other states.

    What are the positives and negatives?

    Is the measure of a state's success based on the number of players that make the regional pool or regional team?

    For instance, Oregon has a weekend tryout. I understand Washington has "evaluators" that watch players throughout the season. Cal South apparently has something similar.

    Thanks.

    Irod
     
  2. Damon

    Damon Member

    Jul 1, 2001
    Evansville, IN, USA
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    In Indiana, we have District training sites where ANYONE can come out for $10/session. The District coaches use these sessions to indentify promising players in each age group and then recommend these players for the Regional pool. At Regional sessions, only invited players are allowed to participate, and once they attend a session it doesn't necessarily mean they're "in" for good. If they continue to work hard and progress, they stay in the pool. If not, they may be asked to leave. As you may have guessed, the "cream of the crop" from the Regional sessions are then invited to attend State tryouts. A State team, which includes a few alternates, is then chosen in each age group for boys and girls. Lastly, these players can then be recommended by our State staff for a shot at making the USYSA Region pool.
    I think we do a very good job here in IN of identifying promising players at a fairly young age (11-13) and then of getting them higher level training than what they may receive at a school/club session. Of course, any system is always a work in progress, but our State DOC and staff are excellent and work very hard to ensure that the entire system is merit-based and not just a popularity/financial contest.
    I hope that helps.
     
  3. irod

    irod New Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    Pacific Coast
    What are the costs associated with participation in your ODP?

    Is there any subsidization from the state clubs?

    Do the players/parents bear the total costs?

    Are the $10 sessions held all over the state or in a single location? Are there multiple sessions players may atttend? Can players travel to different sessions to have a better chance of being identified?

    How does your system identify those players that cannot afford ($$$) to play, thus don't participate in the sessions, but are in the top tier of player abilities?

    Thanks for your responses.

    Irod
     
  4. Damon

    Damon Member

    Jul 1, 2001
    Evansville, IN, USA
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The costs for players at the District/Regional level are paid for by the player/family and, to my knowledge, cannot be subsidized by clubs. The District sessions are held at dozens of sites around the state, as are the Regional sessions. They are generally held once/twice per month and include both field players and GKs. State sessions are at 2-3 locations on several weekends during the late fall/early winter and spring. State players MUST attend multiple sessions (in almost all cases as far as I know) in order to receive serious consideration for the State pool. Regarding high-level players who cannot always pay travel costs, I'm sure that our state association has some type of scholarship program in place, although I don't have any details about that, sorry.
    As I am only involved at the District/Region level, I certainly don't have all of the details about the ins/outs of Indiana's ODP. You may be interested in checking out our state website at inyouthsoccer.org which has several pages devoted to ODP.
     
  5. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

    Jun 23, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    I speak for Illinois.

    Lots.

    If you want to go through the system from the start, that is at age 11, there are 5 hours of "tryouts" at $60 (not really tryouts, since nobody is cut and nothing that a player does matters for their later evaluation), then 14 hours of practices at $300, then a summer camp for several hundred dollars. At the end of which time a U12 team is formed -- but not really. Because a week later the team is dissolved, everybody is admitted into the program again, and the same process repeats -- $60, then $300, then several hundred $.

    So after about $2000 and 2 years, they finally make the cuts and form a true State team, one that trains together and competes against other states.

    Or you can skip all this stuff and just show up as a teenager. Better be very good, though, because if you're not clearly better than an incumbent you'll never get in.

    Nope.

    Yes, but there are scholarships/aid for the financially needy.

    Essentially, it's all near Chicago, which is where 80% of the population is, anyway.

    Don't know. They are totally ignored at the younger ages. But the older ages, it is possible that somebody taps some of these kids on the shoulders.

    At the youngest age (11), I'd say that Illinois ODP is getting maybe 30% of the state's best 50 players. Most parents think that either it's too early to get this serious, or (somewhat conversely) that until they actually start to cut players and form a true team, it's not worth bothering with.

    Couldn't tell you what proportion of the top players are involved with ODP at the older ages. I would hope more.
     
  6. furyboy999

    furyboy999 New Member

    Oct 16, 2004
    In New york state.

    tryouts are held on weekend, and you don't play outside, until teh spring of course.

    It is 10 dollars for teh ODP squad, which is basically training sessions. Then if tehy see you and you do good there, they move you up to the state pool level, which is another tryout, and if you do good there, your asked to play regional ODP which is hard to make, but you have to be Extremely good.
     
  7. MenaceFanatic

    MenaceFanatic New Member

    Oct 5, 2004
    In Iowa, you pay $20 to attend an initial tryout which is approximately one month after a resident camp which costs approx $300. You pay your $20 to get a t-shirt. The second tryout is where the decisions are made.

    What are the positives and negatives?[/QUOTE]

    I think my feelings on the Iowa system have been made very clear on other threads, so I am not going to go there. But, I don't think there are a lot of positives about the system here. And, the results are obvious from all age groups over the years.

    Is the measure of a state's success based on the number of players that make the regional pool or regional team?[/QUOTE]

    Obviously not, or there would have been changes in Iowa over the last few years.

    For instance, Oregon has a weekend tryout. I understand Washington has "evaluators" that watch players throughout the season. Cal South apparently has something similar.[/QUOTE]

    If there are "evaluators" in Iowa watching games, they certainly aren't watching the right games. But, again.....personal biases and axes to grind.
     
  8. irod

    irod New Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    Pacific Coast
    Region IV Regional teams seem to be pretty much dominated by Cal-S and Cal-N with a few Colorado and Washington players. Oregon doesn't place many players at the Regional level, in some cases none at certain age groups. Is this a coincidence? Or is something else going on here?

    If we measure the success of a state's ODP program, it must be measured against other state's programs. Oregon uses a single weekend tryout to determine who moves on to a pool of state players. The Cal and Washington program have used long term evaluations for players for the last few years, and, again, both states get more kids into the Regional pool. This evaluation process would seem to be able to identify those skilled players who might not be able to make it to the single weekend tryout, or who had a bad weekend.

    Certainly, there are more kids in California and Washington to draw from. But I am thinking that this is the not the only reason these states (and others) seem to be more successful.

    Am I correct to believe that ODP's "mission statement" doesn't include anything about training? That training is basically the club's responsibility? If so, then it would seem to follow that one of the reasons my state doesn't place many/any players in Regional pools is that our clubs are not training our players to step up to the next level.

    So is it the training that California clubs give to their players that makes them better than others? Certainly, there are talented players in Oregon, even some players who are better than their California counterparts. And there are very talented coaches with A and B licenses. Oregon Regional teams have recently played very well against California, Washington, and Colorado Regional teams at some age groups. Still, the state is not well represented.

    At Regional Camp, is it possible that Regional Camp Evaluators hold spots open in the Regional pool for players from those states that traditionally have been the powerhouse states? Is there some lobbying that goes on between the state's ODP representatives and the evaluators? What about between evaluators and coaches? Does the coach/evaluator communicate to the players what the evaluator is looking for?

    And, ultimately, does any of this get back to club coaches so that they can get their players prepared for that level of play.

    Sorry to ramble, and I probably have not described what I am trying to get at all that well. Thanks again to those that have responded.
     
  9. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

    Jun 23, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    From what I understand, the Regional selection process is dominated by representatives from the major soccer clubs. The guys whose club teams win regional & national championships call the shots.

    Ultimately, then, I don't think the Regional selections have much to do with scouting vs. evaluations. The states can do what they want in picking the players to send to the Regional level. But once there, the Regional team is formed in a smoke-filled room, where the major clubs select their own, plus a few kids from other clubs who they'd like to recruit.
     
  10. Squash

    Squash Member

    Mar 8, 2003
    I find what John says interesting in many ways. I know that our club dominates in league play, but the staff of the state odp is from a different particular club for the most part...not our club. At times the choices are , ummmm bad. Many times some players we know are better don't get as far, but we continue to travel to larger tournaments and give our player/teams exposure, something they can't do on a team level because they can't get accepted to play in them.

    They can push particular players, but they can't give their teams the same experience. ODP is an extension for our clubs players. We encourage them to play, but we also realize it's only an extension. So playing tournaments, regionals, and so forth are our way of getting these kids as good or better exposure in their soocer future.

    There are plenty of great players that played little or no ODP beyond the state level. That doesn't mean they couldn't play on regional, or even national levels of ODP teams. The system isn't perfect, so do a good job of picking a quality club. that's where 90% of their training is anyways.
     
  11. MenaceFanatic

    MenaceFanatic New Member

    Oct 5, 2004
    So, back to my thread of some time ago.......what is the pointof the ODP system? My contention is that it is about more money for the already too rich and powerful few. To get the best players, a club must do a good job of recruiting. What is the best recruiting tool-- "We have a high rate of placement on the ODP Regional/National pool". So, every effort is made to ensure a large, powerful club can make that claim....in my opinion that equals political nightmares. This is great for the large city population where there are powerhouse clubs. But, lets say you live in a rural area of a rural state and there are no powerhouse clubs in your area. What chance does a great player have to advance? I maintain my contention that the system is broken and we will not be able to consistently compete with the world until it is addressed. Sure, the USWNT is highly competitive.....but how will it be when the 91s are gone? The sun shines on a dog's butt sometimes, gentlemen.
     
  12. Jacque_s

    Jacque_s New Member

    Aug 13, 2004
    OK. That settles it. I am sending my son to sockers next year.
     
  13. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

    Jun 23, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    Good choice. The Magic would be even better. Matko is Region 2 kingpin.
     
  14. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

    Jun 23, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    Two answers.

    One, it's my understanding that the great players worldwide have always come from the cities. Where the population density permits - a) good street soccer games, and b) better official coaching/training. As one bigsoccer.com poster wrote recently, it is ironic that England is perceived as playing a style of soccer suited for muddy fields when England's soccer players historically learned their game on cobblestoned streets.

    So by that answer, you're screwed.

    The other answer is more favorable, which is that yes, there are great potential players in the less populated areas, but USSF had better make a concerted effort to find them before it's too late, that is before they get too old and are left behind by kids who have better opportunities. That may be happening. The recent group of U14s picked to go to a Thanksgiving tournament was unusually heavy in kids who hailed from nontraditional soccer states.
     
  15. voros

    voros Member

    Jun 7, 2002
    Parts Unknown
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I usually can't discuss ODP for very long without getting very very angry.

    Pardon my French, but the whole thing stinks to high heaven.

    What's worse is that it might very well be the thing assigned the single most important task in American youth soccer development, and the whole thing is shot all to hell.
     
  16. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

    Jun 23, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    Voros -

    Just to get you a little more steamed ... arguably the best player on my boy's team (my boy would argue, at least :)) has parents who don't really speak English. I'd like to get him into ODP. I went to the Illinois ODP site to see if there was a description of the program available in Spanish. There isn't, at least not as far as I can tell. I emailed the people at ODP to ask them if there was printed material in Spanish. No answer.

    Hmmm. Maybe 25% of the top young players in Illinois are Hispanic and a lot of them have parents with limited English skills. This seems odd to me.

    To be fair, Illinois Youth Soccer does sponsor a successful and popular Copa Chicago tournament that attempts to bring the Hispanic leagues into the state's mainstream. Just a one-weekend event, not permanent bonding, but at least the attempt is made.
     
  17. voros

    voros Member

    Jun 7, 2002
    Parts Unknown
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Here you go. Feel free to print out:

    ODP es un esquema del patricinio para el futbol. Muchos $$$$$$$$$.
     
  18. Jacque_s

    Jacque_s New Member

    Aug 13, 2004
    No, they seem too militant for me.
    Although I would like my son's skills to do all the talking, it seems like I gotta find a right magaphone for him to be heard.
     
  19. MenaceFanatic

    MenaceFanatic New Member

    Oct 5, 2004
    John-
    The first answer is unacceptable. It is not like these kids are only playing in corn fields. There is a league in Iowa, the Iowa Premier League, where all the elite players compete against each other. There are different divisions, but the best players are there for the most part. A perfect place for scouting.... but it isn't happening. I personally know of a kid who was leading scorer in the league, averaging 3 goals/game. You can't tell me that in the IPSL a kid who can score 3 or more in a game consistently isn't good enough to atleast warrant a second tryout for team Iowa. See, personal axes again.....I have to be done with this thread before people start looking at me as a negative person. But, final thoughts.......I can't speak for the entire ODP system but Iowa is broken. The sooner Region 2 sees it and can fix it the better it is for everyone (except the Iowa Dir of Coaching). The system should be in place to identify talent wherever it may lie, kids in rural areas deserve the same chances that urban kids do--scout league games within your State. If ODP were a club in the traditional sense they would be getting the best kids from wherever they come from. Keep in mind also that there are other ways to get to ODP-- Super Y comes to mind.
     
  20. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

    Jun 23, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    Kinda hard to argue against hat.

    Talking to the wrong person, because while it's fashionable to scout for players, I prefer the good old-fashioned tryout system. At least that way the kids in out-of-the-way locations have a chance.
     
  21. voros

    voros Member

    Jun 7, 2002
    Parts Unknown
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No it isn't. It's working exactly as the people running it intend it to. :D

    One problem is that these arguments are often dismissed as sour grapes from parents whose kid didn't get picked. That's because often they are.

    Of course that doesn't mean the arguments have any less merit just because some of the arguers may have an axe to grind.

    The fed needs to burn down ODP and start fresh. Go to the basic building blocks of player development. Identification, training, evaluation, repeat:

    Try and identify, as best as possible, players who may become very good.

    Give them necessary training as a precursor to reaching that level.

    Evaluate how far along the player is to reaching that level and then either move the player on to the next level of training or move onto the next player.

    Repeat the three previous steps at the initial and all subsuquent levels.

    The rest is just logistics and execution.

    Once the process is straightened out, then we can move on to fixing how it's executed.
     
  22. Grah

    Grah Member

    Sep 4, 2003
    So can someone confirm the numbers for me

    ODP is supposed to be for the USA Olympic team
    Once every 4 years, squad 25 players u21? ( Plus some over aged)

    If every State has 50 kids at each age group 11 to 21 then that means
    Size of Age appropriate Squad x Number of squads x number of states

    50 x 10 x 50 = 500,000 kids to pick 25 players from. So the development program cannot be for ODP as the finally year you better be playing pro or top college or you not getting a look in. After all what camp you did 11 - 18 aint really counted is it?

    So why spend the money AND the Time travelling to weekend get together ?

    Surely organising a session for your child and his friends locally with the best coach you can afford will be more beneficial. OR even just playing in the park practising the show boat skills sprints and tactical awareness. For the same amount of travel + ODP session time bet they would get more touches on the ball.
     
  23. ButlerBob

    ButlerBob Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 13, 2001
    Evanston, IL
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I believe that the long term goal was to help prepare players for the olympic program. It's also used to help identify palyers for the different age level teams. But by sticking the Olympic name on it, your able to get additional funds from the US Olympic federation and get around some NCAA regulations about in season play. It's supposed to be the long term development of players, not just those last couple of years before the Olympics. It's to help identify players at different age levels and then try and give them additinoal training. Also, the program was started before there was a MLS or U17 residency program.

    Also, for soccer there are more then 50 state associations. There are a number of states where they are splint two states. For example, Texas, Ohio, PA and California.
     
  24. Jacque_s

    Jacque_s New Member

    Aug 13, 2004
    50 x 10 x 50 = 25,000. A little more doable than 500,000 kids.
     
  25. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

    Jun 23, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    By the times that the kids get older, nobody's "friends" can play at all.

    If you mean, do this with a player's club teammates, that's only a decent replacement if the club is among the very best in the state. Otherwise, the decline in player quality is too dramatic.

    For sure. But ODP is supposed to impart more than one could get in the park. Plus -- and that's the key -- it's about player identification, not player training.
     

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