NYRB Academy/College/HomeGrown Thread [R]

Discussion in 'New York Red Bulls' started by Napoli 10, Sep 2, 2010.

  1. jeremydneezy

    jeremydneezy Member

    Dec 12, 2011
    Greenville, SC
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Graham Zusi also played four years of college. I agree with your argument in spirit, however.
    I also think Kokoplus10 hits on something important, though. The college draft is still very important for building squad depth and will probably remain so in the near future.
     
  2. Woodrow

    Woodrow Member+

    Dec 7, 2001
    Brick City
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Well, Zusi wasn't on that list.

    That does however bring me around to my original point, trying to jump up in the draft is a dubious proposition, when the top of the draft so rarely includes the real talent. For squad depth, having multiple picks is a plus and drafting lower isn't really that much of a problem, if you're smart about it. Graham Zusi was a second round pick as was Tim Ream.

    Finding players to develop isn't nearly such an obstacle. Even the Matt Miazga's of the world are going to do just fine and probably benefit from getting into a pro environment at an early age. Given a year-by-year progression, the draft will eventually become irrelevant simply because the Academy will more reliably produce those solid professionals than even the future superstars.

    Both Zusi and Ream grew up in a time and in areas where there were no opportunities for getting into an Academy program. I have no doubt that Zusi's career would have progressed even more had he been able to get into a pro environment even a couple years later. He's a prime example of what four years of college doesn't do for a player in that he still needed to develop as a professional over a 3-4 year period before getting that national team shot. His career is at a point now when he has the opportunity to move abroad, but already 27, he's increasingly unlikely to make such a move.
     
  3. defendyourself

    Jul 13, 2008
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    to be fair though second round picks now are like third round picks in the past due MLS's expansion adding more teams to the league. A limited talent pool and with more team available to pick players has to make the draft less of a foundation in building the team. However, that does not mean it can supplement other important parts of building your team. Before the draft was the most important element when building a team, now its tied for first with other components.
     
  4. kokoplus10

    kokoplus10 Member+

    Feb 5, 2008
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Rarely? Meh. Semantics. Your definition of "rarely" may be different from someone else's. That being said if Petke doesn't see any real value relative to his needs higher up in the draft then OF COURSE he shouldn't trade up.

    I guess this also points to the number of holes you need to fill on your roster. I don't think there are going to be as many holes for the Red Bulls as in years past. Thus taking 3 lower picks vs. 1 high pick for something you really need might not necessarily be the right game plan. For an expansion team? Or a team overhauling their roster? Yes, I'd say 100% it makes sense to keep a handful of decent picks.

    That is absolutely the direction we're heading in, but that time isn't quite here yet. The academy system is still in it's infancy. We have one of the best academies in MLS but even that only goes down to age 13. There is a HUGE developmental phase being missed by out academy coaches for ages 8-13. Additionally I think it's only LA and RSL that are on par with our academy system. The rest of MLS is still behind in this regard so you still have a lot of talented kids being missed by academies and going the college route.
     
  5. jeremydneezy

    jeremydneezy Member

    Dec 12, 2011
    Greenville, SC
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The college system and the MLS draft will only become irrelevant when we have a fully humming affiliated/reserve league. The burgeoning relationship between MLS and USL Pro is the beginning of that process.
    You look at some of these kids who sign with Mexican clubs over MLS sides, a large part of their decision is tied to the fact that they will definitely see playing time in competitive games due to a flourishing U20 competition south of the border. People in American soccer circles tend to paint the situation differently and usually point to the lack of a salary cap (and thus potential for higher wages) as an overriding factor. I personally think a lot of these kids see Mexican clubs as a much surer bet for development. The money stuff is far overblown in my opinion.

    Related note: Two college coach friends I speak with regularly have told me of instances where kids have eschewed professional interest from MLS sides (homegrown contracts) at 17/18 years old and decided to go to college. Why? Because these kids were worried they would never see competitive action. Why not go to college, get an education, get a lot of playing time at a relatively high level (both coaches are at traditional powerhouses) and then still have the option of MLS once finished with school?
    That paradigm will finally be transformed once a developmental league allows for a lot of competitive game action. It's been the most glaring problem with our system for years.
     
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  6. kokoplus10

    kokoplus10 Member+

    Feb 5, 2008
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Agree.

    The salaries in Mexico are much higher. They have a greater chance at PT, but they also know that they'll be paid better in the future should they choose Mexico. It's also why some college kids go straight to Europe or guys like Agudelo don't want to sign new contracts.

    Competitive game action and MONEY. For a kid to make 40k a year vs. getting a college education isn't an easy decision. Change that 40k to 400k and it's a VERY easy decision.

    What's the saying? Money talks and... ;)
     
  7. Woodrow

    Woodrow Member+

    Dec 7, 2001
    Brick City
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Well, I consider also that Red Bull in particular have been successful mining the lower reaches for useful players. There's Tim Ream, Jozy Altidore and of course Jeff Parke.

    Clearly the team also needs more depth to account for all the games being played next year, but they have also parted ways with several players including some who started a large number of games. While it is arguable that none of the players let go were game changers, they were at least depth that will have to be replaced. So, I don't think drafting one "sure fire" starter is going to plug all those holes.

    Not much to argue with, really. But with Atlanta and Miami in the offing, the number of uncovered regions is winnowing down. I would question if it is "a lot" of talented kids. As I said when this discussion started, I put less stock in the future talent represented by the Red Bulls own college corps (let alone the other college players) for the simple fact that the staff have already had a look at them as teenagers. The SoCal, Texas and Tri-State area clubs all play each other and there are many opportunities for scouting such players. Certainly it is possible that one or two out of several (That's precise!) of the Red Bull collegians would turn out to be solid pros, but again that's not really what pays the bills. The Academy structure is there to produce future starters and superstars. That's what brings home the bacon.
     
  8. kokoplus10

    kokoplus10 Member+

    Feb 5, 2008
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'd call it "soft" coverage.

    The U.S. is so vast that to scout the entire region with professional scouts that actually know what they are looking at would cost way WAY more money than is currently available.

    Most MLS academies count on other "pay-to-play" training programs to spot the gems and then bring them to their front door later on at age 14-17. The best leagues in the world have a pro scout on every street corner bringing 8 year olds directly to the pro academies. Until we reach that level (it's a LONG way away) there are still going to be a LOT of kids who aren't found early enough and end up in the college system for a variety of reasons.

    Wasn't Agudelo brought to us at age 16? Way too late. Think of the player he could have been with pro academy training ages 8-18.

    Heck if Michael Bradley hadn't been Bob Bradley's son he might have gone the college route. Early on he was pegged as extremely hard working with good basics and a good soccer brain, but he wasn't flashy and they didn't think he'd develop physically the way he has. Without the opportunities he was afforded we might have seen him much later. We need to "afford" more kids more opportunities so they can take full advantage of them like Bradley has. That requires money, and until that kind of crazy money is there some of these guys are going to fall through the cracks. Thus, we still need the college system. I imagine we'll still have many high quality players going through college for the forseeable future.
     
  9. Woodrow

    Woodrow Member+

    Dec 7, 2001
    Brick City
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    I just don't think you and I would define "high-quality" the same way. I just don't see nearly as many players coming through the college system making it to the national team and/or making successful moves abroad, either directly or indirectly. The young talent these days is trending more and more towards going pro early or bypassing college entirely, whether that is with MLS or a foreign club. So where you see many high quality players, I see a pool of talent where the cream has already been skimmed off. With better development opportunities, maybe the average college player is just as good today as he was 10 years ago, but the standard of the league has risen and the elite players have way more opportunities than college. We've seen a number of Bradenton players go straight from Residency to foreign clubs and an increasing number of the U-20s are based abroad, too. Wait for players to get out of college and you've already missed the boat.
     
  10. kokoplus10

    kokoplus10 Member+

    Feb 5, 2008
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah, the HIGHEST quality players aren't likely to go the college route anymore. However, because so many more of them are going to Europe at a young age we are still reliant on the college guys to fill a variety of roles on our rosters.
     
  11. Woodrow

    Woodrow Member+

    Dec 7, 2001
    Brick City
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    To be sure, it is a cheap source of talent.
     
  12. theENFORCER

    theENFORCER Member

    Apr 10, 2010
    NY
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    People need to realize that the majority of American players in the MLS have came through the college system as opposed to the youth setups(some cases both)

    So to undervalue the draft will be a huge mistake
     
  13. GunningforMLS1993

    Aug 28, 2013
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Never underestimate the system that gave us the mighty Nick Zimmerman.
     
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  14. kokoplus10

    kokoplus10 Member+

    Feb 5, 2008
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #439 kokoplus10, Dec 8, 2013
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2013
    Virginia beat UCONN 2-1 (Virginia: Defender Scott Thomsen went 90. McCord DNP) (UCONN: Decker & Wagmeister DNP)
    Maryland beat California 2-1 (CDM Dan Metzger went 90. Cardona, Roach, & Cyr DNP)

    And so the semifinals are set and we have an exciting rematch!

    Virginia vs. Maryland
    Notre Dame vs. New Mexico

    Thomsen wasnt' leaned on all season by Virginia. Not sure if that was due to injury or coach's decision, but he's been extremely important to their recent run. So in addition to Metzger Petke might be looking at Thomsen as well.

    Also, it's completely idiotic that they are playing the semis on the 13th and the final on the 15th.
     
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  15. kokoplus10

    kokoplus10 Member+

    Feb 5, 2008
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
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  16. Woodrow

    Woodrow Member+

    Dec 7, 2001
    Brick City
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Our boy got the start but was pulled late for another defender (outside back, maybe?).
     
  17. kokoplus10

    kokoplus10 Member+

    Feb 5, 2008
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And then Portugal scored one late to win...which makes Olosunde look better?
     
  18. Woodrow

    Woodrow Member+

    Dec 7, 2001
    Brick City
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Well, I had thought maybe they pulled him in favor of a more attack-minded player going for the win, but considering the other guy was also a defender, and the lack of other reporting, it is hard to say for sure why he got subbed out.
     
  19. defendyourself

    Jul 13, 2008
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Roxburgh said the teeam plans on taking Chris Lema and Arun Basuljevic with them to preseason tournaments. Also he expects Miazga and Obekop to have increased roles next season. There is other good info in the article as well about 3rd division side.
    via NY Post
     
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  20. kokoplus10

    kokoplus10 Member+

    Feb 5, 2008
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That is a VERY interesting article. As expected they won't look at anyone in the 1st round of the re-entry draft. No surprise. Only 1 player was taken in the 1st round last year. However, they WILL look at a few guys in the 2nd round.

    "Asked specifically about departed players Fabian Espindola and Brandon Barklage, he said Espindola’s contract wasn’t picked up because of fiscal reasons (he would’ve resulted in a $400,000 cap hit) and Barklage was not retained for tactical reasons."
    "Ownership is willing to spend $2 million to add on another practice field, locker rooms and waiting room to the training complex, to be used by the academy team and potential third division team."
    Roxburgh has been encouraged by the academy, expects Matt Miazga to be part of the rotation next year and thinks Marius Obekop has the potential to take a big leap forward."
     
  21. FlipsLikeAPancake

    Jul 6, 2010
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    "Ownership is willing to spend $2 million to add on another practice field, locker rooms and waiting room to the training complex, to be used by the academy team and potential third division team. They hope to have the third division team by the end of 2014, and wanted to get it done for this year but red tape got in the way."
    I'm glad to hear the Red Bulls wanted their own USL team this year, because the reserve league isn't good enough. But the talk of spending money to build additional locker rooms concerns me. It seems to imply that the 3rd division side would be playing in Red Bull Arena. I would much prefer if the team played somewhere like New Brunswick or Trenton. Then it would be close enough that the USL side could train with the Red Bulls (allowing for easy evaluation and movement between the rosters) but far enough that it might draw some different fans.
     
  22. iced1776

    iced1776 Member+

    Dec 4, 2009
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Locker rooms are said to be for the training facility, not RBA.
     
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  23. FlipsLikeAPancake

    Jul 6, 2010
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Misread that, whoops! Still, I will be interested to see where a Red Bulls USL team ends up playing.
     
  24. Woodrow

    Woodrow Member+

    Dec 7, 2001
    Brick City
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Olasunde subbed in at the 66th in a big win vs. England.

    Read More
     
  25. Woodrow

    Woodrow Member+

    Dec 7, 2001
    Brick City
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls

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