NRC: Bob Kraft IS a savvy businessman

Discussion in 'New England Revolution' started by patfan1, Jul 25, 2010.

  1. rkane1226

    rkane1226 Member+

    Apr 9, 2000
    Club:
    Stade Brestois 29
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    [Bottom Line] I find the entire on-field and off field Revolution product increasingly frustrating and uninteresting to the point that, in my mind, it no longer exceeds the value of my time, gas, ticket price, and occasional concession. [/Bottom Line]

    Not much beyond that matters to me. Fix it now, not later.

    The knee-jerk response will be, "Oh you are too negative..."

    Yeah, 15 years of attending games, 13 as a season ticket holder. Yep, I'm probably too negative; too impatient. The other 10-15K that no longer show up appear to agree with me.
     
  2. revsrock

    revsrock Member+

    Jul 24, 1999
    Boston Ma
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The thing the Krafts are running this organization in a very similar way that Jacobs ran the Bruins in the 90's and earlier this decade. The best thing Jacobs did was finally let his hockey people run the team and let them spend the money all the way to cap. The Bruins now have hockey people in charge of running the team and actually have a direction they are going towards. i hope that the Revs one day do this also.
     
  3. KaptPowers

    KaptPowers Member

    Dec 29, 2003
    Arlington, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Sounds like he might have a little something to do with things....

    The other thing being seeing how tight-lipped they are, we don't know for sure who does what with the Revs anyway.
     
  4. saabrian

    saabrian Member

    Mar 25, 2002
    Upstate NY
    Club:
    Leicester City FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The first few years of the franchise, the team was drawing 19,000-21,000 fans a game. And that's for a team that was, at the time, crappy and without any history or tradition.

    Four of the last six years, they've drawn under 13,000 a game. This year, they're under 12,000 a game.

    That's called "growing the franchise" only if we're playing the "opposite game."
     
    1 person likes this.
  5. revsrock

    revsrock Member+

    Jul 24, 1999
    Boston Ma
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    4 reasons why the Pats grew out of his original investment

    Bill Parcells(already here by previous owner)
    Drew Bledsoe(already here by previous owner)

    Both of the guys above gave the Pats respect in the NFL for the first time since the late 70's.(Other than the 85 run to the Super Bowl the Pats were a joke in the 80's)

    These next 2 guys are responsible for the last 10 yrs of success!

    Bill Belichick(Best move Kraft has ever made with his sports franchise)
    Tom Brady(honestly the Pats got very very lucky with him, only one coach wanted him and that was Dick Rehbein and he talked the Pats into drafting him over Tim Rattay).


    So the way I see it is he made on very smart move, but his decision on the 1996 draft the alienated Parcells was huge huge mistake by basically giving the power to Bobby Grier. The Bobby Grier drafts and the letting go of Curtis Martin was huge huge mistakes.(In hindsigh glad they happened because I do not believe if they had been more successful during the Carroll/Grier years BB would not have been hired in 2000.
     
  6. patfan1

    patfan1 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 19, 1999
    Nashua, NH
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Thanks ... that was my point as well to the "growing the franchise" comment.
     
  7. rkupp

    rkupp Member+

    Jan 3, 2001
    I do think he's involved, in the sense that he's "in the loop". And, if they reach an impasse at some point, maybe he'd get more involved.

    When there's a deal in the works that could have significant impact beyond the tenure of the coach/GM, sure, the owner is going to want bottom-line approval. But, I have no doubt that if Belichick didn't want him involved, he wouldn't be.
    We don't know that there is a "limit".

    Admittedly it's all speculation, but, FWIW, here's how I think it works:

    Kraft says to Burns/Billello/Nicol/Tornberg, I've hired you guys to run this organization, you are the guys with the expertise to make decisions. If you see players you want, go get them. If it means going beyond the salary cap for a DP, run it by me, but, it's your organization to run. If you want to run more promotions/marketing, etc., go for it. But, bottom-line, you're all going to be judged by the bottom-line, so make smart decisions.
    I think that's exactly what they do now. What evidence is there that the Krafts are meddling in the organization or preventing the "soccer people" from doing what they need to do?
    I think if you look around MLS, almost all of the original franchises (and older expansion teams) have similar problems.

    Columbus has a championship in it's cabinet, a quality, contending team, their own stadium and ... they have attendance problems!
    You omit the most important things he has done that brought about the huge increase in value:

    1) the Pats were low-valued because they didn't own their own stadium. He bought the old Sullivan/Schaefer/Foxboro Stadium from Karp.
    2) He then built a brand-new stadium that has brought accolades from all over for the quality of the facility to the creative financing he used to fund it (completely free of any public money!).
    3) He hired Bill Belichick (which cost him in dealing with NYJ, but to his credit, did it anyway).
    4) He bought up almost all the private land around the stadium and redeveloped it. What was once a solitary stadium and a parking lot is now a huge complex, with retail, business, medical, entertainment and training facilities on site.
     
  8. patfan1

    patfan1 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 19, 1999
    Nashua, NH
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You can't say Kraft "does not get involved in the football operations" and then say "maybe he'd get involved." He either does or doesn't. I'm not saying he's involved in 100% of the discussions or even 10%, just saying he's involved.
    We don't know there isn't. Your point?
    Again ... that means involvement.
     
  9. Weber King

    Weber King Member

    Sep 28, 2001
    North Andover, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    As long as he cuts the checks, he's involved.
     
  10. ToMhIlL

    ToMhIlL Member+

    Feb 18, 1999
    Boxborough, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Agree to disagree if you like, but I have never, ever heard of an organization in any industry or business type that does not have a specific budget (and that means a limit to how much you can spend) for the various areas of the business. When it comes to marketing, it's pretty clear that the Revs do not spend as much as they might. Some argue that it is "smart" to hold the line on spending, saying that the ROI on additional marketing might not justify it. Agree or not, there is no question that whoever is making decisions has clearly set a budget. How many times have you heard someone say, "sure, we'd like to do that, but we don't have the resources (i.e., budget and staff) to do it."

    We don't know what goes on behind the scenes, but I think everyone on this board knows that we are not going to sign any high-profile player at any time soon. Do you honestly think that Nicol could go out and get a player for a 3-year, $3 million deal, but he isn't doing it because he is worried that someone above him will smack him down if he isn't "smart" about it? Or is it that he can not find anyone at all who would be the "right" player for that kind of money? Maybe it's niether of those things, maybe it's the fact that there is a limit to what he is given to spend, and it is a lot harder to find a (healthy) Twellman/Joseph level player on the worldwide market for $250,000 a year.
     
  11. revsrock

    revsrock Member+

    Jul 24, 1999
    Boston Ma
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    1) But Orthwein brought in Parcells which finally gave the franchise a stable head coach/ front office

    2) Brand new stadium built on Parcells/Bledsoe success. Parcells deserves alot of credit for that stadium, he made the franchise legit and season ticket numbers prove that.

    3)Yeah I didn't miss that, said that was his best move ever made

    4)What does Patriot place have to do with the Revs/Pats we already know that he is against including any of his money made from that towards NFL revenue and has nothing to do with the Forbes value.


    You can not deny that Parcells/Bledsoe/Belichick/Brady are the main reasons for the Pats value. If you do have them and do not win Super Bowls the Pats are not valued at over 1 billion dollars. All 32 NFL franchises are in the Top 50 Forbes ratings, so his value has a lot to do with the NFL system more than him. Having your own stadium adds some value, but look at the Raiders they are the lowest valued NFL team at 797 million without owning a stadium.
     
  12. Revs in 2010

    Revs in 2010 Member+

    Feb 29, 2000
    Roanoke, VA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    In my mind this is the crux of the Kraft family involvement with the Revs. I think they set an overall budget, and probably set a limit for the GM and/or coach to be able to sign without approval. Let's say, for the sake of discussion, that Burns and/or SN can sign a player for up to $150K per year without approval. Above whatever level, they need the next level of approval -- at some point, approval from Bob or Jonathan comes into play.
     
  13. Soccer Doc

    Soccer Doc Member+

    Nov 30, 2001
    Keene, NH
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    ---and it's ALL about the checks and he knows how to be wise with HOW and WHEN to spend his money so the pot of money he has to pay the checks continues to expand.

    You all jumped on my comment that Kraft knows how to grow a franchise. You as fans think Cups, fannies in the seats and W/L records as representative of success. As a sportsmen I think those things have some importance to Mr Kraft but as a businessman in a start-up league it's all about TIMING and finding the least costly way of getting the greatest return. To me that's how he grew the Pats and how I think he's trying to grow the Revs. IMO.how we fans view growing the franchise and it's timing is different that how things look from behind his desk. He's running a business and from his reported wealth he seems to know how to grow a business.
     
  14. KaptPowers

    KaptPowers Member

    Dec 29, 2003
    Arlington, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So 15 years with everything trending downward, isn't the time now? Attendance is down, apparel is difficult (if not impossible) to buy in the region's largest city, and the team's media profile hasn't grown in over a decade. A local professional sports team (technically competing for entertainment/sports dollars) just hosted a successful event in YOUR sport and has made noises about having more.

    What are you waiting for?

    You're using your least-costly asset, your professional soccer team, to benefit what you spent big money on- your privately financed stadium and outdoor mall. It isn't about growing them. Its about keeping them going at the smallest possible cost so that benefit can continue.
     
    1 person likes this.
  15. revsrock

    revsrock Member+

    Jul 24, 1999
    Boston Ma
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If you do not win, you do not have a successful franchise. Like I said before you need a competent GM/HC in the NFL and you will win in a salary cap era. Bob Kraft had never ever owned a team/franchise in a non salary cap league. In fact this 2010 NFL season will be the first he has ever had that did not have cost certainty. He gets 92% of his salary cap money for the NFL from the league TV contract.
     
  16. ...and I hope he sends Mo Lewis a birthday card every year because it's better to be lucky than good!!
     
  17. RevsFanDan

    RevsFanDan Member

    May 24, 2005
    North Shore
    Club:
    SSC Napoli
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Gotta spread REP!!!

    Why is this such a difficult notion for people to understand??

    If anyone believes that Burns, Bilello, Nicol or even Jonathan Kraft HAS but doesn't want to go out and spend the money on a DP or 2..then they have discovered the theory of everything and need to share that "stuff" with everyone!!
     
  18. rkupp

    rkupp Member+

    Jan 3, 2001
    My point is that you were speculating on what it is, when we don't even know if it exists.
    Well sure (like the mayor is "involved" with the school bus coming on time), but the point is (IMO) he isn't involved in day-to-day decisions with either team, except for unusual situations.
    I think they have a budget (which includes the full salary cap). But, when you're talking about DP (an opportunity that exists every year, but is not often used), that is pretty likely an out-of-budget item (partly because "in concept" it is supposed to be self-financing).

    It would make no sense for the front office to be looking/offering contracts for DPs if they didn't have the approval of management to close those deals. And, it's been confirmed that they have made DP offers at least a few times.
    No, I think he hasn't done it because if doesn't work out (player isn't good enough, injured too often, doesn't improve attendance, etc.), the red ink is bleeding at a much higher rate and those involved in the decision are likely to get fired.
    I'm sure there's a theoretical limit, but I think the "restriction" is that the transaction needs to be able to generate much of the "over-cap" expense for the player.

    So, yeah, if Nicol and Burns say to Kraft we're going to pay William Sunsing $1M a year, but don't worry because the Brazillian community will come out in droves and we'll make it up in ticket sales, that might cause Kraft to ask some questions.

    But, if it's something a little more believable, I think Kraft's response is more likely to be something like "if you guys are confident this is a good move, okay, but your heads are on the line if it blows up".
    I do disagree. I think these valuations have more to do with pure business factors, like assets, contracts, infrastructure, market value, etc. than players, coaches, attendance, ...
    It the movement of the franchise within that sector that gets him so much credit.

    And, he's established, in a very short time, a leadership position in the NFL and a reputation as a key figure in the modernization and growth of the league over the last decade. That isn't easy to achieve in what essentially was a "good-ole-boys" club when he joined. He was one of a small group of new guys who dragged all those old guys forward, increasing the value of all their holding tremendously in the process.

    I wonder why there's so much of an effort to deny or minimize his reputation, when it is pretty much universally held among close observers of the NFL. :confused:
    As I said, I think Burns/Nicol/Billello *want* to get a DP, but at the same time, feel a lot of pressure to make sure it's a wise choice.

    Fact is, we all agree their acquisition record is very poor. So, when you raise the stakes, any reasonable person would be want to be *more* cautious.

    When the Revs are going through this season with %40, or whatever, of their payroll not contributing, I have to think those guys are feeling a *lot* of pressure, whether they say so publicly or not. That only raises the personal stakes of a DP signing that much higher.

    I don't think Kraft minds spending money on the Revs, but I'll bet he has a big problem when a large chunk of it is "non-performing".
     
  19. The Perfesser

    The Perfesser New Member

    May 23, 1999
    AthensGA/NewburyptMA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I can't speak for my fellow posters, Doc, but I only jumped on your comment because you explicitly mentioned championhips with your comment. He's done that for his first priority, but he hasn't done that with his considerably lower priority.

    This is exactly the problem, especially since he was a player or two away from the skill level that would have given the Revs a championship or two. And these are the criticisms that are at the heart of this and other threads. It wouldn't have required that he spend Cosmos' level money to improve the team, just at a level that other top MLS clubs are doing but that he refuses to do.
     
  20. ToMhIlL

    ToMhIlL Member+

    Feb 18, 1999
    Boxborough, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Perhaps his first question should be "Why would Brazilians come out to see a Costa Rican?" but maybe this is a trick question to test Bobby-K's soccer knowledge.

    There was a list of pretty good players someone posted a few days ago, lots of them guys who played in the World Cup. The consensus from a lot of folks was that sure, it would be nice to have any of those guys, but we couldn't afford any of them. I dunno if any would take the 3 years/$3 million hypothetical offer, but you should be able to get a pretty good player for that kind of dosh. Not any of the 8-figure names we see tossed around, but certainly a player who should be able to make a huge impact. Whether the Revs have set unrealistic expectations by saying that he has to be "marketable" off the field is another question. They have been pretty weak overall in the publicity/parketing area (some will argue wisely), but when your fan base doesn't know Wesley Snijder from Wesley Snipes, no player can have the kind of impact they want. And certainly not a "second tier" player on the world level who might otherwise be interested in a 3/3 deal.

    If Nicol and/or Burns made an expensive player signing that didn't work out they'd get the axe? Maybe. But I see Nicol more interested in what the guy can do on the pitch, and less concerned with how recognizable the name is to the general population. If people don't buy enough Leonel Messi jerseys (when Revs jerseys are hard enough to find), yet Nicol wins an MLS Cup, he gets canned?


    Where exactly is that line between "caution" and "paralysis?"

    But when you know full well that there is at least a decent shot that the 40% of your payroll might not be able to contribute but you take the gamble with no backup plan whatsoever, you damn well better be willing to accept responsibility for your conscious decisions, and not just shrug your shoulders and chalk it up to "bad luck."
     
  21. RevsLiverpool

    RevsLiverpool Member+

    Nov 12, 2005
    Boston
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Great post, very well said.

    On the last point, at a pre-season supporters summit of your most ardent, paying fans, when supporters ask who is going to play forward for this team and you say "he's got a headache", you look like an IDIOT when that player ends up going on IR mid-season. People recognized that was a risk, you miscalculated the risk. It would be nice to raise your hand and say "yea I f*cked up" and have some accountability to the fans instead of "bad luck" or injuries. Just saying.

    I'm inching closer to being done with this team every year.
     
  22. patfan1

    patfan1 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 19, 1999
    Nashua, NH
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's even worse when you think that they went through this LAST YEAR with no backup plan.
     
  23. RevsLiverpool

    RevsLiverpool Member+

    Nov 12, 2005
    Boston
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Exactly. In our world (not KIASB owned companies where the motto is "no pressure"), you'd get fired for that type of screw up. At KSG, apparently you get 9 screw ups before you're cut.
     
  24. firstshirt

    firstshirt Member+

    Mar 1, 2000
    Ellington, CT / NK, RI
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Amen Brother
     
  25. saabrian

    saabrian Member

    Mar 25, 2002
    Upstate NY
    Club:
    Leicester City FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think the most telling thing is that this thread about Bob Kraft is prefaced NRC: non-Revs content. Says it all, really.
     
    1 person likes this.

Share This Page