Now it's Lisi and Edgar on the go.......

Why don't you wait to find out what the results of these possible player moves will be, before you start moaning?

Bartolomeu takes up a senior international slot. We've got allocations galore, but if there are ANY allocation-worthy Americans/green card holders coming to MLS next, they'll be damned hard to get.

So we have got to use our allocation or allocations on foreign talent. Bartolomeu is an okay player, but we have to do better than okay with a foreign slot next year. We have to be able to bank on all three of those foreign players starting and being among the best at their positions in the league. No journeymen Edgars, no washed-up Juskowiaks, no laid-up Morenos. If we don't get three excellent foreigners, we're gonna be also-rans next year.

And Edgar, despite whatever talent you think you see in a dribble-happy 27 year-old who wasn't even among the best at his position in the A-League, is totally expendable. This isn't a young, burgeoning talent, even if you never heard of him before. He's a bargain-basement left-sided player in the second half of his career who is a waste of a foreign slot unless you're damned desperate to add a bit of depth to the roster.

As for Lisi: he ain't gonna get 11 assists again. He played well, but his game has some big flaws. If we can take advantage of his inflated stock value and get a starter at a position we need (outside of midfield?), then we would be stupid to hang onto a player who just would add to the cluster*#*#*#*# in the middle of the pitch. Trade him if we can get a good deal out of it, of course.

 

Re: Re: Now it's Lisi and Edgar on the go.......

In your opinion, what are those flaws?

For me his #1 drawback is that when we had to defend (usually half the time in most games), he would plant himself in the middle and guard space. The play consistently moved around him. He would never pick up a player to limit the other teams options. I could overlook that a little if he was in the main attack more (taking shots, trying to penetrate, overlap with strikers, etc.), but he likes to play the withdrawn distributor role which he did pretty well, but you have to play both ways in that position. We can't afford a player who can't defend in that position.

My own two cents would be to build around 3-5-2. Assuming Bonseu isn't traded away, we find a third defender or let Leitch grow in that role to go with Pope and Bonseu. Grow Regan or find another workhorse to pair with Clark (Leitch?). Let Guevara stay in the center and find two wingers.

No matter how I slice it, I keep coming back to the wing play being our achilles heal. A lot of young strikers found some success last year throughout MLS. I'm clearly in the camp that believes that with the right midfield, the goals will happen even if we don't have a superstar up front. In that scenario, Edgar in an SI slot is eminently expendable. If he had a greencard I think Edgar would have a shot at the left-sided utility role and Digi would be gone. But...

V.O.R.

 

the possibility of them leaving was higher than not, but can someone copy/paste the main points of the article, please?...maybe it's just me, but for some reason i can never access the articles..

 

Same here!

are they being released, traded?

 

Edgar is not a quality MLS player, plain and simple. With the cap space we have now there is no reason to have him occupying an SI slot. Yes his offensive runs were fun to watch but they never led to anything and the man can't cross... What other purpose does he serve on this team? Defense?? lol

 

Re: Re: Re: Now it's Lisi and Edgar on the go.......

In my role as this board's #1 Lisi supporter, I suppose it's time for me to chime in:

The above was only a problem for Lisi in the second half of the season once he'd done his foot. And even then he was still occasionally effective defensively, most notably in the first leg of the home-and-home with New England when he was the only Metro midfielder not to embarrass himself.

He still needs improvement defensively, but when healthy he was hardly a liability.

I disagree with your characterization of Lisi as "a player who can't defend", but agree with your point that a two-way player is a necessity for that position (Reyna being the archetype). Sadly, I think Bob agrees with you more than me when it comes to Lisi's game, and I expect him to be gone by the time the SuperDraft rolls around.

Want to bet? He's the best passer in the league - put him on a team with real forwards and he'll be devastating.

The guy leads the team in assists with a bum foot in limited minutes, and he "just adds to the cluster*#*#*#*# in the middle of the pitch"? That's crazy talk, son.

Here's hoping he ends up on a western conference team.

 

You know the main problem (imho) is not so much the defenders or the wing (which I sorely think we are missing out on) or the lack of prime strikers (which we really need) but one of communication.

For the whole of last season Guevara would made some nice moves, shoot a pass and nobody else on the field had any idea what the F he was doing.

Whether I diagreee (Jolley, Lisi) or Agree (Bart -dude) has no effect on the house that Bob builds. The only thing that is very clear to me is that he really better start doing his job and provide some team cohesion and real teamwork out there.

Other teams grow to know eachother's play very well and learn to read the field and the opponents as one.
We, the Metro foster children of soccer never seem to learn to play as a unit/team. We are always traded off before any chemistry develops. (or is coached)

So if Bob can coach, he needs to start doing it. Unless of course you just buy into the Steinbrenner mentality of buy the best and it will happen by itself. However with MLS' byzantine player aquisition structure and lack of clear team funding or identity that ain't gonna happen.

Wish I'd read something positive like some of the players had lunch together or all got together and duck taped Metro Dog to the front office door. It's always this parade of cut, trade, and hold out for the savior FA player from Columbia, Poland, Germany...whatever country is the flavor or discount soccer store of the month.

Off season - gotta love it..... Is Man U playing this weekend?

 

gotta agree with the Lisi apologists, seems we got him pretty cheap from DC because they were tired of waiting for his potential, or at least for him to be consistent, but he really began to break out this season, and it wasnt lost on the rest of the league...just seems he was in bob's doghouse and never really got out...aside from bob stubbornly sticking with ABMOD, it was the main thing i disagreed with bradley on...it wasnt much of a secret that he would be traded, nor that edgar would be let go...i really feel if edgar were not an SI, hed have no problem sticking around metro, or at least MLS...as for lisi, i just hope we get good value for him...Studsup, the problems with our personnel are the main problem...bob's ability to coach has never been questioned, so why bring that into question before he finishes the offseason?...im sure its clear to him that when he brings guys in, it's to build around a core of guys we have, and to establish the way he wants the team to play...needless pessimistic noise if you ask me...and yea, man.u plays kasey keller (tottenham) this weekend...

 

If we can get something good for Lisi, then do it. If not, then don't do it.

And there is no realistic way that if we dealt Lisi, we could get an all-star and a first round pick. Lisi maxs out at a second round pick or an equal caliber player (could get someone out of favor, like maybe a CJ Brown).

Two deals I would like to see involving Lisi:

Lisi to New England for Brian Kamler's rights (his option was not picked up by the Revs).

Or Lisi and a pick to Colorado for Mastroeni (rumored to be out of favor with Hanki). Imagine that midfield, Gueverra, Mastroeni, Clark all central, Gaven wide right, then trade for Kamler's rights and throw him on the left. We would have solid flank play and be solid on and off the ball down the middle.

 

And not only that, but Lisi's a Colorado boy.

I like Lisi, but I would throw a party if we ever got Mastroeni for him. Hard to see that one coming off unless Colorado was in serious cap trouble, and I don't believe they are.

 

If we trade Lisi for Pablo how the hell does that help us score goals? Mastroenni and Clark are basically the same players but of different vintage - that is, destroyers with athleticism and some amount of skill on the ball. Neither is a gifted passer or creator.

That said, we have the cap room and Colorado is in cap trouble, Pablo and Hanki are at odds, and the Rapids already have three d-mids ranging from capable (Trembley) to potentially useful (Powell, if he ever gets healthy), to soon-to-be national team member (Beckerman). They were stuck for a central creator all last year, and Lisi would certainly be able to fill that role for them.

It makes a lot of sense from Colorado's side of the deal, but I don't see how it does from our side unless we stick Pablo along a three-man backline with Pope and Bonseu. He's played that position before (2000 and 2001 with Miami) and played it well, so it's not unprecedented. Given he had a subpar year in the center of the field last year and that guys like Mulrooney and Armas are now probably ahead of him on the USMNT d-mid depth chart (with Beckerman and Clark moving up quickly) it might be the best thing for his career to move back to defense for the Metros. At that spot he's certainly better than Califf, Garcia and some of the other hacks who are somehow in the mix.

Who the hell knows? I still trust in Bob, but if he deals Lisi I will have lost a good chunk of my faith in his ability to evaluate talent.

 

Why doesn't the usual password work?

 

If Lisi goes to Colorado, and I see that as the team that he will go to, it will be the a HUGE mistake for Metros. He is one of the few late bloomers in this game and I promise you that a healthy Lisi will get 11 assists again very, very easily. Say what you want, his defending has improved and NY/NJ needs his vision in their midfield. If this happens, mark it down that this time next year there will be a "How did Lisi get away from us" thread here...

 

If Lisi gets traded, I predict that he pulls a josh wolff, and gets hurt. (again) (and again)

 

as a Bob apologist, if not THE bob apologist, i am hoping more than anything that whatever we get for Lisi is a lot more than i think we will get (and more than i think he is worth), because i really think he's gonna be even better next year wherever he plays...[sigh]..

 

Man, it is already a long off-season when someone throws out a "maybe Lisi and a pick for Mastro" and it becomes serious speculation. We are not trading Lisi for Mastro because that would be among the all-time most lopsided trades in MLS history, even if it were just for cap issues. You think that the fans of the other nine teams hate us now for league favoritism?

If we trade Lisi, it is most likely for a 1st or early 2nd round pick -- and our early picks last year didn't exactly suck, so if that's what Bob wants to do, I'd trust him. We won't get anything of value for Edgar.

 

If you are that good at predictions then we need to go to Vegas....

 

Spot on analysis in this thread, unless any of you actually like Lisi

The Mastro trade was pure specualtion on my part, and you guys may be right, it might take more then Lisi and a pick for Mastro-we might have to throw in Richie Williams as well or a low priced central defender like Addo. Colorado is a tight against the cap from all accounts, and Mastro and Hanki have bad blood. Mastro is versatile in that he can play central mid, defensive mid or two positions along the backline in a 3-5-2, plus he is also poised on the ball. Adding him next to Clark and behind Gueverra would be a very interesting midfield. Wide right, we would have a young and exciting player on the dribble in Gave. On the left side, if we could add Kamler, we have someone who can strike the ball well and hit a nice cross and plays good solid defense. Kamler, after last season, is a fringe national team player, but most importantly, he is the type that Bradley likes. Quiet, dependable, gives a workman like effort. He can play a solid 75-80 minutes and then Digi can come in to close a match down.

Use then an allocation for a top notch striker along side Magee and hold on to the other allocation for next year or the year after. Patience is a virtue.

 

Hilarious.

Mathis? Bob isn't going to let him anywhere close to his team next year. He's gone.

Kamler as a fringe national team player? Only if they start a "masters league" format. He is not exactly and up-and-coming player - even if he is a decent one. And you would have to give up something in order to secure him from NE. He is likely to want a fair bit of coin, too, as a guy who has been in the league since about '97.

And even if you could trade Lisi for Pablo (you would have to send something more than Addo as a make-weight or Rapids would be getting ripped off) you would be eating up a bunch of your (admittedly large) cap room. It would only make it harder for you to tie up the top-drawer forward you need to sign to replace his mathisty.

Plus. You will need another decent defender to help solidify the lineup when Pope is hurt/on Nats duty. C.J. Brown is the one we hear about all the time - but he wouldn't be bargain basement cheap either.

I think Pablo = pipedream.

 

Forgive me sensai, I meant Magee and not Mathis.

And we don't neccessarily need any more help along the backline, though if options arise, I am sure Bradley would look to upgrade some more. Leitch, Pope and Bonseu are all more then able and capable along the backline. Mastroeni would be terriffic in the central midfield-another defensive mid is needed to make the 3-5-2 work. With more then 600k in cap room, we could take Mastro and Kamler's new salary, and still add Nunez or Grabbi.

And metioning Kamler as a potential national team player does not necessitate that he play for the national team. After the season he had last season, he surely is on Arena's radar. Not nearly as absurd as the Lisi notion IMO.

And please note, I also said Lisi, a pick and Williams. Thanks.

twit.

 

Colorado wouldn't ever take Williams as a makeweight, we don't have any picks to throw in, and Addo's not going to be back no matter what.

It's a nice dream, but it is a pipedream.

 

That makes a little more sense, an easy mistype to make. Although if you view Magee as a starter you are going to need to carefully pick a much more physical and athletic partner. I suppose Nunez might do - but not Grabbi.

You still only mentioned three defenders. Remember that Pope is going to be hurt a few games and away at Nats for some others. I suppose Mastroeni or Kamler could move into the backline in a pinch - but wouldn't it be wise to have a little more cover? I thought Leitch played more in a right fullback mode - did he also play a lot as a right marking back in the three man lineup (sorry, I admittedly don't watch much Metros soccer).

I thought that both Clark and Mastroeni were mobile enough to play as a single def mid. That is why it seemed strange for Bradley to marginalize Clark in the right side spot last season. But I suppose the arrangement you mention is more orthodox.

I thought Mastro made close to 300k. If that is the case, Mastro + Kamler (easily in the low 100k range) would leave far too little to sign Grabbi with. After all, Grabbi even has some interest from Seria A right now (I know its hard to believe. If you would like, I can search for the link on Soccernet). That inclines me to think that Blackburn will have enough leverage to demand a transfer fee for him. Even if it the transfer fee is minimal, it will keep Metros from being able to apply extra allocation money to his salary (which seems to be the normal way that MLS teams can get away with signing the high-priced overseas players). I don't see how a guy on premiership wages will be willing to come to New York for @200k. I am less familiar with Nunez's salary demands, but whenever he has come up on DC boards - it seems like he would be close to a league max player.

Unless Metros sent some salary cap relief with Williams - I doubt he would be much-desired in a trade with Rapids. After all, he makes around 100k. I can't see him going much below that. And he would end up being a reserve for them, with Beckerman and Powell surely ahead of him in the lineup. I don't see why he would be deemed an asset to the Rapids.

Do the Rapids have Chung AND Henderson coming back? I can't remember if Henderson is out of contract or not. If both are coming back - even Lisi might struggle to get in the side regularly, unless they went to a full-time 3-5-2. And he would still have to fight with Seth Trembly for playing time. This trade just doesn't seem to make much sense to me.

 

Re: Re: Now it's Lisi and Edgar on the go.......

Ah something we can agree on

https://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=87551&perpage=15&pagenumber=3

 

Exactly.

But it seems not enough who support this club will give anyone a chance make some gaffs.