Not a true Christian: Debate Christianity and Religion's role in Politics

This Trumper that attacked the Mormon church mightve wanted to debate that Mormons are not true Christians.

 

So, I have some experience here. I’m not sure @Bootsy Collins would like to opine (sorry for summoning you if P&CE is verboten).

the argument is essentially that if certain fundamental “constants” were slightly different, our universe couldn’t/wouldn’t exist, such as the mass of the Higgs Boson or the cosmological constant, strong and weak forces, etc…..

It seems a logical fallacy to me to argue that because things are the way they are, even if highly complex, then something intelligent must have made it so. It is the “silly” watch argument.

The issue being, we really have no comprehension how our universe came into existence, so how can we possibly recognize intelligence in its creation? We know how a watch is made, so we can make that distinction.

 

The watch argument is imbecil to the hilt, as the creatiolusionists use a built object that cannot replicate itself, let alone evolve into something better, to living creatures that procreate and in doing so evolve too.
In other words they use as an argument for creation an object that obviously needs a toolhandler with a selfsustaining system.

 

@rslfanboy yeah, I know that argument. This wasn’t it.

Quiet child the grownups are talking….

was my reaction to this post

 

I focused on the implied jump from "the universe looks to have been designed" to "strengthens my faith" that he made. I read it similar to the jump CS Lewis takes in Mere Christianity.

For the sake of argument, let's presume that the first billionth of a billionth of a second for the universe suggests an outside intelligence or force caused it. In no way, shape or form does that logically lead to Jesus was God incarnate rather than Odin is the All-Father, Tangaroa, Tane and Rongo are the sons of Papa and Rangi, Allah spoke to Mohammed, the Birdman speaks for Makemake, Poseidon is the god of the seas, etc.

Perhaps it supports deism, but that's as far as it goes. But even then, it's not exactly a fool-proof argument.

 

Just imagine a "being" creates with the big bang our universe, that's so immense big, that earth itself isnot even a microbe, sizewise in that universe.
I once saw a depiction of how earth relates in size to our solar system, where earth was represented by iirc a marble. Wylie Overstreet and Alex Gorosh had to go to a desert to put up the 11 km diameter scale model. That's just earth in our solar system.
Imagine how much you have to shrink earth to get an 11km scale model of the Milky Way. Now extrapolate that to the size of the universe.
And now imagine the entity that created it all shrinks itself to a size to be able to get to earth AND have a special relationship....with one particular group of people within the insignificant human species on an insignificant planet in an insignificant galaxy.
The preposterous self-glorification by way of a god that has a special affinity to humans is simply ridiculous in the grand scale of the creation of the universe.

 

Peter Thiel, the gay technology baron and ally of Donald Trump and JD Vance, says fear of tech advances will hasten the coming of the Antichrist.​

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Really? So, there's no way that AI represents a 21st century version of the Golden Calf?

 

There's a trail in Sugarloaf State Park in Sonoma, California with model kind of like that. They have signs along a trail that have scale sizes of the planets at scale distances. It's funny how you go through the first 3 planets without leaving the observatory parking lot and it takes about 4 miles to get to Pluto.

 

There's a similar hiking path in Zurich - take the train to the top of the Uetliberg and follow the Planetenweg along the ridge. Because it's Switzerland, there are restaurants every couple of miles so you can stop for a beer or a snack. At the end when you get to Pluto, there's a cable car to get down from the ridge and then a train back to the center of town.

 

MAGA and Pope Leo seem to be on a collision course.

https://www.cnn.com/2025/10/04/europe/conservative-catholics-pope-leo-xiv-intl

It’s just basic at this point…any church more interested in the actual Gospel than the size of the congregation and the budget opposes Trump, the others all do.

Basically, we live in Daniel Plainview’s America. Mammon has

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beaten God to death with a bowling pin. Not that the Paul Dano character was all that godly.

 

Gay Technology Barons

Band name!

 

It'd be nice if the Council of Evangelicals or whatever the F they call themselves stood up to Trump in some way

 

MAGA Jesus strikes again

 

This article explains a concept that I understood intuitively, but had never seen named: vertical morality

https://www.aol.com/articles/vertical-morality-might-describe-why-110017462.html

Im gonna be using that phrase going forward.

Supershort version is, vertical morality aims to please God, or a cult leader like Trump. Some of you young’uns might not believe this, but conservatives in this forum used a form of that 20 years ago to defend Bush. Anyway, it’s a morality based on unthinkingly following rules and norms set by a leader.

Horizontal morality is about doing what’s best for your neighbors, your community, Etc. It’s about being thoughtful and inclusive in your actions.

 

Instead of, or added to "catastrophizing" and "reality-based"?

 

I asked our resident defender of the faith whether Lutheranism has freed itself of the stupid rules or not. Never did get a reply.

Why is it that I'm no longer being called a catastrophizer? What could have possibly happened? I haven't changed...

 

Does this belong here?

New prez of the Mormons coming soon

The new president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will inherit a global faith far more diverse than many realize

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has spent the past few weeks in a moment of both mourning and transition. On Sept. 28, 2025, a shooting and arson at a Latter-day Saints meetinghouse in Michigan killed four people and wounded eight more. What’s more, Russell M. Nelson, president of the church, died the day before at age 101. Based on protocol, his role will most likely be filled by Dallin H. Oaks, the longest-serving of the church’s top leaders.

The next president will inherit leadership of a religious institution that is both deeply American and increasingly global – diversity at odds with the way it’s typically represented in mainstream media, from “The Secret Life of Mormon Wives” to “The Book of Mormon” Broadway musical.

As a cultural anthropologist and ethnographer, I research Latter-day Saints communities across the United States, particularly Latina immigrants and young adults. When presenting my research, I’ve noticed that many people still closely associate the church with Utah, where its headquarters are located.

https://theconversation.com/the-new...ith-far-more-diverse-than-many-realize-266337

 

He also inherits control of 300 billion dollars. Maybe the article should have mentioned that.

 

The cross is both vertical and horizontal.You need both joined or its two sticks.

 

You are not a "conservative Catholic" if you reject the authority and infallibility of the Pope.

It's like a pretty big thing in that religion.

What the ******** is up with these cafeteria Catlicks, almost all of whom are Yanks, seemingly?

Plenty of lapsed Catholics turned their back on the Church for how Rome has handled the many scandals, the large majority of those folks don't go around pretending to be practicing Catholics who have the authority to challenge the Vatican and the Pontiff.

Take it away, Kevin.

 

Didnot you notice they got their own brand of protestantism too?

 

I mean, how could he!!!

 

Great. Another Pope who acts like Jesus meant what he said.

How can anyone take the Church seriously if this crap continues.

 

Many converted Catholics do so with the mindset of the Crusades, not Jesus.