Noel Kinney Fired!

Discussion in 'MLS: News & Analysis' started by chayes, Aug 15, 2002.

  1. neilgrossman

    neilgrossman New Member

    May 12, 2000
    Hoboken, NJ
    The PK itself was a ridiculous call. McKinley ran into Talley and he called a PK.
     
  2. Burn20

    Burn20 New Member

    Jul 29, 2000
    NJ
    Don't say that on the Chicago boards! They cried for days over his officiating at the Dallas game.
     
  3. krolpolski

    krolpolski Member+

    And his horrible calling when DC played the Fire at home on July 31. Missed at least 3 fouls in the box that should've resulted in penalties (including one for DC).
     
  4. monster

    monster Member

    Oct 19, 1999
    Hanover, PA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah. He even intentionally headed a ball out of the net he's so biased. :rolleyes:
     
  5. detter7

    detter7 New Member

    Jun 14, 2000
    PA
    I know it's terrible to be ecstatic about someone being "fired," but thank the heavens above!
     
  6. SoFla Metro

    SoFla Metro Member

    Jul 21, 2000
    Ft. Lauderdale, FL
    I'm pretty sure MLS isn't going to be trumpeting from the parapets that they had a ref removed from duty.
     
  7. SoFla Metro

    SoFla Metro Member

    Jul 21, 2000
    Ft. Lauderdale, FL
    Yes by all means, let's ignore the rules

    Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit, is it?

    :rolleyes:
     
  8. dcunited81

    dcunited81 Member

    Jul 18, 2001
    Green Bay, WI
    It's about time that MLS woke up to the crappy officiating this guy does. Anyone who actually saw the KC vs. DC United game would know that DC got totally screwed. How else do you explain the fact that he allowed a missed penalty kick stand when KC players were all over the inside of the box and then when it was questionable as to weither anyone was even close to being in the box the goal for DC is dissallowed. What a bunch of crap!! I'm glad he's fired. The last thing this league needs is crappy officials. Good Ridance Napolean Kenny!!!
     
  9. feuerfex

    feuerfex Member

    Apr 21, 2001
    From the match report on mlsnet:

    The Fire's man-advantage did not last long, as Razov was issued a second yellow just before the half. Given a lofted pass to midfield, Razov handled the ball to his feet. With the second yellow of the evening, Razov was ejected from the game, further opening the field for the second half.


    From the match report on the Rapids web-site:

    The Fire's man-advantage did not last long, as Razov was issued a second yellow just before the half. Given a lofted pass to midfield, Razov used his hand to control the ball. With the second yellow of the evening, Razov was ejected from the game, further opening the field for the second half.


    From the match report on the Fire web-site:

    The Fire tried to capitalize on the advantage, but Razov found himself victimized by a second yellow card in the 45th minute. Razov intentionally handled the ball at midfield and Kenny issued him the card.
     
  10. Mattinho

    Mattinho Member

    Jan 27, 2000
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You have great reading comprehension skills, terrific. And if you were a MLS referee you would be fired too. Maybe you missed that part of the discussion.
     
  11. Jeremy Goodwin

    Jeremy Goodwin Member+

    SSC Napoli
    Feb 16, 1999
    Club:
    Montreal Impact
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I was at the game in Denver, and I can't agree that Ante was victimized. It was absolutely clear, even from the upper deck that he had handled the ball, and the only thing that I thought was odd about it was that the ref didn't seem to remember that it was a second yellow at first. He was walking away from the site of the booking and must have gotten a little memo from the assistant, because he went back and showed the red.

    Ante was being stupid, he should have been on his best behavior, not hoping that the ref wouldn't give him a second yellow on the strength of having one already.
     
  12. Mattinho

    Mattinho Member

    Jan 27, 2000
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This coming from the king of Annoying. Then you have the gall to stick up for Basketball refs?! I guess I was making too much sense for your little brain.
     
  13. feuerfex

    feuerfex Member

    Apr 21, 2001
    The point is, a handball is not a yellow card offense, and thus from that aspect he definitely was "victimized."
     
  14. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Couple things:

    The guy that worked the Wednesday game between KC and Chicago is Erich Simmons. It's his second year in MLS and he'll be around for a long time. He worked the A-League final last year, and is only 26 or so. There are about 5 other young refs like him (who have reached the MLS level in the past year), so there is a lot of turnover in the referee pool right now.

    Secondly, feurerfex, you are, unfortunately, incorrect. Handling is a foul and a free kick, true. But so is tripping or pushing or kicking, etc. That doesn't mean you can't get a yellow card for it--or a red card. If handling stops a goal or a goal-scoring opportunity, it's a red card, right? Well, if it is considered "tactical" and prevents an attacking opportunity--OR, if it is in an attempt to score a goal, to put a player in a position for a goal-scoring opportunity, or to prevent an opponent from gaining possession--then it is supposed to be punished with a yellow card. So, if Razov handled the ball down to his feet intentionally, he probably deserved a yellow card. A stupid play on his part even to risk it since he was already on a yellow.
     
  15. Claymore

    Claymore Member

    Jul 9, 2000
    Montgomery Vlg, MD
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  16. billf

    billf Member+

    May 22, 2001
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    When I watched the Col-Chi match on July 4th, Kenny almost failed to send off Razov for the second caution. I think that may hve contributed to the failed assessment.
     
  17. SoFla Metro

    SoFla Metro Member

    Jul 21, 2000
    Ft. Lauderdale, FL
  18. Mattinho

    Mattinho Member

    Jan 27, 2000
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  19. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    He's talking about the second caution to Razov.
     
  20. The Cadaver

    The Cadaver It's very quiet here.

    Oct 24, 2000
    La Cañada, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Anyone out there is welcome to correct my recollection, but I think that on the Razov handball Ante was at or very close to mid-field. He may have even been on the Fire side of the midfield line. His handball sure looked intentional, and gave him an advantage, but it would be pretty hard to say that it put him or Fire on a position to score. Assuming my recollection is accurate - intentional but well well away from the goal - what would the verdict be? Card or foul?
     
  21. SoFla Metro

    SoFla Metro Member

    Jul 21, 2000
    Ft. Lauderdale, FL
    My initial reaction when he handled the ball in that game was "that was stupid, he's already on a yellow." It didn't surprise me that he was sent off.
     
  22. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If it was intended to give him a tactical advantage (for example, it helped him beat a defender) then the position on the field can be irrelevant. True, it's more likely to be a caution the closer he is to goal, but Kenny was well within his rights to show a caution for it (judging by the description).
     
  23. Plasnick

    Plasnick Member

    Aug 13, 2002
    New York, NY
    I was THERE, man!

    I was at the KC-DC game, and while it was all in all a poorly officiated match, I don't think Kenny deserves to lose his job over it.

    Here are the miscues/situations I remember from the game:

    *The in-the-box call that everybody's talking about.

    *The penalty that led to that PK was pretty shady, especially for a violation in the box with 3 minutes left.

    *He obviously did not handle DC's complaints well--Richie Williams got in his face at the end of regulation, practically assaulting him, and only got a yellow rather than a red, and several quotes after the game indicated that he was laughing off their complaints rather than addressing them.

    *There was a real bad penalty in the first 5 or 10 minutes that wasn't called. Basically a takedown in the box from behind that negated a DC scoring chance. Much worse penalty than the one Etcheverry got a shot for at the end of the game.

    *Bobby Convey and the midfielder who was covering him for KC were going at it for much of the first half, sometimes neglecting the action to jaw at each other, and sliding at each other's feet whenever the opportunity presented itself. Kenny didn't really do enough to stop this until (I think) Convey stayed down after one nasty tackle.

    But these were all judgment calls, not outright misapplications of the rules. There were definitely one or more DC players in the box when he made the big call--really can't argue that. The big takeaway from this game was not the poor officiating, but that Tony Meola is still a damn good netminder (and that even when they control the action, the United cannot score).
     
  24. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: I was THERE, man!

    Fans here won't believe it, but MLS refs will probably never make outright misinterpretations of the rules (seeing as how refs who have made it that far have worked thousands of games beforehand).

    Anyway, assessments at this level are critiquing judgement. Like how advantage was applied, man management (when to card/when to warn), consistency, etc. If an assessor thought Kenny's judgement was only subpar at this level overall (note that a passing grade for most referees in this country is a failing grade for an MLS ref) then he would fail him. That seems to be what happened.
     
  25. Minnman

    Minnman Member+

    Feb 11, 2000
    Columbus, OH, USA
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I didn't see the DC-KC match, so I can't comment on whether or not Kenney deserved his fate.

    What I'd like to know, from those of who who've spent more time on the pitch than me (as players or refs), is do good refs warn players or even entire teams that they're close to being called for infringement X? Or that, maybe because of past history (like lots of chippy play the last time these two teams met), the particular ref doing the game will be calling any and all physical play and handing out cards early if things get rough?

    Again, I'm not thinking of the Kenney situation exactly, but I suppose it could apply there. What if a ref had noticed that the teams, in essence, ignored the non-infringement rule on an earlier PK (on which a goal was scored and where the infringement was judged not to effect the play and was ignored)? Could/should he have warned both teams in the event of a second PK that he was ready to enforce the infringement rule if it happens again?

    Or look at the flip side of a PK: keepers jumping off their line before the ball is kicked. Not usually called, I understand, but I think it should be, and I see no reason why a ref couldn't warn both keepers before the match about his particular interest in enforcing this aspect of the rules of the game.
     

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