Nick Webster: Why Yanks Can't Score Abroad

Well, he's certainly right about the likes of RVN and Thierry Henry scoring hattricks every week in MLS. There's really no disputing that. Did you see the way RVN charged the Arsenal defense and scored in that 2:2 draw at Highbury? There's not a single defender in MLS who could have even kept pace with him.

So who are the best defenders in MLS? Certainly Bocanegra is up there, but still would have a hard time in any of the big four European leagues. Hopefully the improvement in our domestic attacking players will translate into better defenders.

 

or that Friedel, Keller, Hahnemann, Howard, Meola, Rimando, Brown, Cannon, or Hartman wouldn't have let Ronaldinho score on a weak free kick...

 

"I fear that America’s most promising player, Landon Donovan, will gradually become a wasted talent if he remains in MLS. He’ll begin to pick up bad habits and won't be tested enough at the highest level against the best defenders. Without that sort of competition you just can’t improve as a professional."

That say's it all.

 

Says nothing at all, except that it's a knock on MLS. We're not a farm league for Europe. Set aside the fact that he wants to play here, which is really all that matters, his talents aren't wasted on those opponents in MLS who do play against him, and get tested by his skills and abilities. From this, we can eventually get a handful of new talent who can rival the skills of a Landon Donovan, and some of those will move overseas and others will stay here and repeat the process.

So Nick's full of...well, fill in the blank.

 

MLS = English First Division ... maybe.

But I think MLS's defense is weakest in middle third. There is not the same intensity as in EPL or La Liga to close down on the ball and, as a result, force crisp passing or mistakes from the offense.

 

Well other than ignoring the fact that-

the McBride deal was a loan and he was always a fill-in,

JMM had chances and missed them,

Eddie's doing better than his ex-gaffer Tigana,

JK ain't all that and never was,

and Reyna's a central mid,not a striker,

Nick's just spot on with all of this,especially the whole beer thing.Beer is really good.

 

And blaming MLS for Kirovski and Reyna's problems is a bit ummm... "curious" is I guess a good word.

Kirovski went the exact route Webster suggests and he's found himself plummeting down the USMNT depth chart. Europe is not some cure-all panacea that will magically turn all our players into Soccer gods. Sometimes people act like the top European leagues are all guys like Michael Owen and Sol Campbell, when there's actually also plenty of Danny Dichio and Tomas Repka to go around.

Donovan really has a perfect scenario going. He can stay here and play until he knows a first-team slot is open for him, and then go ahead and take it when he's 23 or 24.

Plus other than Donovan, I'm not sure what he suggests players like DaMarcus Beasley should do. I mean "go to Europe" means what exactly? He can't just decide, "well I'm going to play in the EPL now for Newcastle, see you later." It's catch 22. MLS players aren't perceived good enough until they go play in Europe. But because MLS players aren't perceived to be good enough, they don't get to play in Europe.

The ball is in Europe's court.

 

Well, but you can't apply the same standard to every player. Some US players would unquestionably be, and have unquestionably been, better off in Europe, some in MLS. John O'Brien springs to mind, as someone who clearly would not be the player he is today had he not gone over to Ajax at a relatively young age. Same for Claudio Reyna. And Kasey Keller. Personally, I feel Landon Donovan would be better served to be in Europe sooner rather than later; I think he'd be a much better player in the long run if he was immersed in that lifestyle and atmosphere, and he unquestionably has the talent to succeed.

On the flipside, you have guys like Pablo Mastroeni or Chris Armas, who probably would have been lost in the ether had they gone to Europe, but who have made themselves into good players by staying in MLS. I think you have to take it case by case; in general though, I think more of our players should be heading over seas.

 

Damn, I was hoping I was going to beat you to that point on this thread. Oh well.

In any case, Nick loses a bit of credibility here, though I sure for some he makes up for it by employing cockney slang in his article.

 

I submit that if the US had a player as good as RVN, he could go to any premier club and do as well as RVN. BMcB is not RVN. However, BMcB has shown a clear, consistent ability to score against some of the world's best in high pressure circumstances. Moreover, despite the author's thoughts to the contrary, RVN would not do a hat trick every game and possibly not at all were he to play in the MLS. He presently has the not-so-minor benefit of having the entire ManU team behind his efforts and, I think most of us will agree, ManU is a bit better than the best of MLS. Put those shoes on BMcB's feet: what would he do with David Beckham providing him aerial service? That might be fun to see!

 

Why Yanks cant score

Are the not all married? ;-)

 

Kirovski won't even make the depth chart if he did not go to Europe. He would just be another player in MLS if he returned home after manchester United. He just did not have it in him. Where is Nelson Vargas the AC Milan player?

 

I don't think what Webster's saying is all that controversial. It's the same as ESPN's latest favorite stat -- that all of MLS' over-20 goal scorers did so in their first year in the league and then failed to repeat that feat the following year. Defenses learn. It's not as if Donovan scores scads of goals -- defenses key on him to shut him down. A good player either learns to deal with that or, hopefully, the team gets complimentary players to not be one dimensional.

And as for England not considering MLS a top league -- it's a little insulting to those of us who care about American soccer, especially as Americans gobble up English soccer (like the ManU tour). But so what? We'll be considered a good league when we produce top players that Europe buys on the cheap (a la Argentina). Is that a good thing? It's one of the natural American attributes to be concerned what those in Europe think about us. But this is a case where a little insular viewing is worth it -- support your local MLS team rather than some EPL team who doesn't give a rat's ass about you and considers you a "footy" knob anyway.

 

Not that I disagree, but we really _don't_ know this. Furthermore, Webster's article focuses on the level of competition being the key, and realistically the level of competition John has seen playing for Ajax and the reserves hasn't, for the most part, been particularly higher than he'd see in MLS. If Ajax has improved his game more than if he stayed home, a more likely explanation would be the level of instruction he received at a young age (a level at which Ajax is largely considered to be tops in the world).

And the main point is that he's using a very small sample for his article, and uses Kirovski when in fact Kirovski is a counter-example to his hypothesis. In other words, he has no actual evidence other than the fact he's English and therefore knows more than we do.

It seems the importance of Europe can and has been overblown. No doubt it should help players' games, but a little bit of moderation in the expectations of how much might be in order. I'd much rather a young prospect be playing in MLS than sitting in the reserves for a European side.

 

McBride was never a scoring machine until he went to England. He left on his own accord, not because the scoring dried up.

Between Lewis and JMM, only JMM had one season were he scored on a consistent basis.

Kirovski has been in the EPL so long, yet remains despite a lack of production. If he's just a washed up American get rid of him. I don't suspect MLS will be falling all over themselves to sign him.

I guess if Nick is right and Americans only score because the players don't respect them; then good, at least they've earned respect.

 

This is the email I sent to webster:

Clearly no one thinks that MLS defenders are as good as EPL players. I do have to question your analysis though.

First and foremost, only one Yank forward of the first class has ever played in the EPL. That is Brian McBride. And his goals "never dried up;" his loan ended. Maybe the would have, maybe not, who knows. But it was a business decision, not performance on the field that ended McBride's run of goals.

As for Joe Max Moore, he simply never has been that talented and during the Arena era, a reserve forward except when injuries have occurred. Frankly, I am impressed that the number four US forward had as much success as Moore did in the EPL. As for Jovan Kirovski, he is not a forward and certainly not a top forward for the US. If Mathis, Wolff, McBride and Donovan had the problems that Moore had in the EPL, I would share your concerns. But none of that has happened yet.

As for Eddie Lewis, it is hard to score from the bench or the stands. Now that Lewis has a chance to play, he is producing goals, albeit at a lower level. Could he do it in the EPL, who knows? But you should also keep in mind that Lewis is far from being a forward and didn't score that much in MLS either. So it really is beside your point anyways.

Finally, Claudio Reyna had never scored a lot of goals anywhere in his professional career. He is not a goal scorer and why you bring him up, is completely bewildering to me.

 

Re: Re: Nick Webster: Why Yanks Can't Score Abroad

Was there even an MLS when JOB went to Ajax? If there was, it was in its first year. If JOB had been born 4 years later, then I'm gonna have to disagree. Maybe he'd be better off going to Ajax at age 16, and maybe he'd be better off playing in MLS at age 16.

 

typcial eurocentric arrogance.

I am not sure if Webster is a yank, a brit or where he is from, but, he and his like, are rueing the day that Yanks are producing goals in numbers and occupying field spots all over the Prem, not just in Goal or at a few clubs here and there.

[dream]Hell one day, we may be asking why English forwards can't score in MLS. And they will be losing players to our league that pays them more and offers more sponsorship money [/dream]

I had no problems scoring in Europe when I lived there

 

1st, JMM not very talented? Hes one of the top goal scorers in US history. Now if youre going to say that hes not very talented relative to the rest of the world, thats true, but thats more an indictment on the skills of US fwds the US has produced than anything.
As for your Claudio Reyna point, you missed pointing out the best argument against Webster: the fact that Claudio never played in the MLS, so he would never have been affected by the quality of MLS defenders.

 

Statistics are not everything. I do not think JMM is in the same class in terms of talent with those that I consider the top US forwards -- Wynalda, McBride, Wolff, Donovan, Mathis. I understand if you and others agree, but my opinion is that JMM is a hard worker who can finish exceptionally well at times. My opinion is that you now need something more to make the top echelon of US forwards nowadays -- thankfully.

 

Each of your points is perfect. The only important point in Webster's article was the one on Donovan. I think Nick's right here. Donovan needs to go to a better league, with better defending, if he wants to become a better player.

 

Maybe it's not that simple. I think he needs to be the big fish in a small pond to help him develop leadership skills. That is something he can't do overseas right now. I'd rather him work on that and for him to form a high confidence level before he goes back to playing against players who are already there.