NFHS: You say you want a revolution

Discussion in 'Referee' started by Elizondo, Nov 20, 2009.

  1. Elizondo

    Elizondo Member

    Jul 6, 2009
    USA
    I enjoyed a 90+ minute conversation last night (no points for guessing what we were doing) with long standing member of the NFHS Soccer Rules Committee.

    It started when he approached me to ask if I would communicate with referees that he was looking for feedback. Apparently, the committee meets in late January, and he's looking for things he can put on the agenda.

    He's open to just about anything. He indicated that "they are trying" to get the Rules more in line with FIFA. For example, he thinks the soft red should be abolished.

    Of course, I told him the solution was simple: Adopt FIFA laws as promulgated by the USSF, specifically to include all official USSF publications, memoranda, directives, etc. Then make a list of modifications you want and call them the Rules of Competition, and include those rules that states may alter via State Rules of Competition. Done and dusted.

    He smiled and gave me a look that said something along the lines of "It ain't so easy". However, he really does want to shore up the loopholes, get rid of minor differences that have no reason for being, etc.

    I'm working on my written response, but thought it would make sense to ask this forum for their input.
     
  2. Funkfoot

    Funkfoot Member+

    May 18, 2002
    New Orleans, LA
    Your solution sounds good to me. Start with FIFA LOTG as a baseline, then modify what you need to.
     
  3. jayhonk

    jayhonk Member+

    Oct 9, 2007
    You should have asked him:
    Who cares about loopholes?

    Then, once he gives some reason to fix some small difference, the question becomes, why not fix them all?

    Really, why not?
     
  4. campbed

    campbed Member

    Oct 13, 2006
    New Hampshire, USA
    Well, if adopting FIFA/USSF rules is too much for the Commissars to handle in one go, here are a few of my pet peeves that they could start to chip away at:

    3-2-1 - replace with FIFA/USSF "Which goal would you like to attack."
    5-2-2-d-3 - same as above on coin toss.
    3-3-1 - no substitutions from the bench, replace with FIFA/USSF procedure
    3-3-5 - sub becomes player, player becomes sub when referee beckons. replace.
    5-3-1-b - "use the official nhfs soccer signals". replace with FIFA/USSF signals. This isn't American Football, those guys are on the other field.
    5-3-1-b same as above on signals.
    5-3-1-f-note1 - "show the yellow card and the red card simultaneously". replace with FIFA/USSF.
    12-8-1 - cautioning coach or bench personnel. replace with FIFA/USSF, only players or substitutes may be cautioned or sent off. Just dismiss the knucklehead like in FIFA/USSF.
    12-8-2 disqualify player with a yellow+red card. replace with FIFA/USSF.
    14-4 PK stutter step not allowed. replace with FIFA/USSF and allow.
    15-5 Throw in does not enter field, award to other team. replace with FIFA/USSF and rethrow.
    Pregame Conference w/ coach/captains/players (a.k.a. Referee pontification time). eliminate, replace with standard FIFA/USSF coin toss.

    Whew. I'm out of energy. Just advise that they should widdle away at the list of differences, and we support them in that.
     
  5. Alberto

    Alberto Member+

    Feb 28, 2000
    Northern, New Jersey
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Abolish NFHS and bring the high school programs into the USSF. Same with NISOA. There is no need for three separate bodies. There should be one and it should be the USSF.
     
  6. glutenfreebaker

    Oct 3, 2009
    Mount Vernon, WA
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Rule 12 Section 8

    I think it would simplify things for players and referees if NFHS adopted the 7&7 of the USSF. Most of it is the same in spirit, so I don't see why it can't make it a little easier on us by making it the same in the wording of the rules. For example, DOGSO doesn't need to be lumped in with SFP and there doesn't need to be two offenses for spitting.

    Then they can add in there extras if they really find them necessary for the benefit of fair play. i.e. taunting, entering the field because of a fight, incidental vulgar language, etc. Maybe instead of 7&7 they will make it 8&8, but it would make the lists more similar and easier for everyone to know what is being enforced and why.

    Rule 3 Section 3

    I don't see any reason to complicate the substitution process. Any dead ball with the referee's permission seems to work pretty well. I think NFHS should take that onboard too.
     
  7. IASocFan

    IASocFan Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 13, 2000
    IOWA
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    NFHS provides the rules for all high school sports. They just need to reference FIFA for Soccer rules. And I like Elizondo's recommendation:

    Adopt FIFA laws as promulgated by the USSF, specifically to include all official USSF publications, memoranda, directives, etc. Then make a list of modifications you want and call them the Rules of Competition, and include those rules that states may alter via State Rules of Competition. Done and dusted.

    And I would include requiring USSF certification and training as part of the requirement for refereeing as well as DSC for all Varsity matches and preference for lower level games.

    I have done freshman games and Jr. High games with the 2 man system without issues, but those are usually low key games with considerably less skill. However, those games should be good training vehicles for training newer officials and ideally should be DSC.
     
  8. Elizondo

    Elizondo Member

    Jul 6, 2009
    USA
    Let's be reasonable. The NFHS is like any other organization: Entrenched and politically motivated. Care to guess at how much money they generate publishing and selling all those rule books? There are a lot of folks dedicated to the longevity of NFHS, and they aren't going away any time soon.

    However, I rather like AYSO's example. They publish the FIFA LOTG each year. And they put their AYSO logo all over it, with the statement "Printed for the American Youth Soccer Organization with the permission of FIFA"

    There is also a little box under the FIFA "Notes on the Laws of the Game" that says "AYSO Rules of Competition and modifications, in accordance with the above notes, are included following the appropriate Laws." They also take up a page listing all the AYSO officers and board members, and telling us how to contact the AYSO national offices.

    This is precisely what NFHS should do. It's been done before, it could be set up very easily.

    Now ask me if I think NFHS has the courage to do the right thing.
     
  9. DerbyRam54

    DerbyRam54 Member

    Apr 26, 2005
    Stop trying to micro-manage time. Stop adding time on for things that are natural events in a match (goal scored) and start making an allowance for things that aren't part of a match (substitutions).

    You did say you wanted a revolution.
     
  10. LiquidYogi

    LiquidYogi Member

    Sep 3, 2009
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Yeah I've always felt that NFHS should go with FIFA and USSF and how they do things. However I have to admit, some things in NFHS are kinda fun. Like sending a player off with a yellow/red and then not having the team play short. Or carding a coach, come on you gotta admit that's a lot of fun sometimes.

    I don't know it's never been a struggle for me to switch back and forth between rules, I do think that the coaches and players find it annoying sometimes. I just kinda like there being some variety, or maybe I should just go ref some beach soccer games :D
     
  11. Alberto

    Alberto Member+

    Feb 28, 2000
    Northern, New Jersey
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is not going to happen. Overcoming the inertia of the NFHS will be a monumental task. Two referee system vs. the three referee diagonal system of control. Playing the ball on the ground, the soft red, timing, the American football offside signal vs. the FIFA offside signal and many more. You think some fat high school referee use to running his quadrant in the two man system is going to accept the diagonal system of control? Heck, he'll take his fill of American football instead. Though that's a good thing.
     
  12. IASocFan

    IASocFan Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 13, 2000
    IOWA
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Iowa High Schools use the DSC for all Varsity and JV games, have abolished the soft red and don't require use of the NFHS signals. It may be baby steps, but with enough encouragement from the coaches and referee organizations we can work our way towards the LOTG. Our local USSF referee organization assigns games for 90+% of the high school games, and requires USSF training and certification. We assign based on our knowledge of the teams and our referee pool. I had two national referees on my crew last year with several up and coming referees and some old experienced ones.

    Our high school teams are basically the club teams reorganized by school district. Some big schools have mostly premier level players and knowledgeable coaches, while the smaller schools have mostly rec players and less knowledgeable coaches. It helps that soccer coaches can get a coaching certificate from the Community Colleges that qualify them to coach at the high school level. Slowly the football coach with time on his hand to coach soccer in the Spring is disappearing.
     
  13. david58

    david58 New Member

    Aug 29, 2003
    Oregon
    Sorry, but too large a percentage of the refs doing NFHS are multisport referees - they consider themselves "officials" and do pointyball, basketball, volleball, baseball, wrestling, etc, etc, etc. Handing them the Laws of the Game would be very foreign to folks that think they need a detailed rulebook to describe all the possible situations. I don't think it is something that's going to be bought into, at least not until the organization realizes the pitfalls of the dual system and the three whistle system.

    As a former ref, I would have loved to have done HS using the Laws. But I've reffed with guys that could never have handled the "flexibility" that lovely book offers.
     
  14. AlextheRef

    AlextheRef Member

    Jun 29, 2009
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Thank goodness!! I am a freshman at Cornell College in Mt. Vernon and I am planning on getting the NFHS Certification for Iowa too (I am certified in Illinois already) so I could referee higher levels than U14 this season. I hated all of those things as a player in High School and I am glad I won't have to implement them in games.

    I am assuming you are in the Des Moines area then? Do you ref NISOA (If yes, Did you referee a Cornell match this season?)?
     
  15. USSF REF

    USSF REF Guest

    We all want to rule the world...

    But, the first thing you would need to do, is to get the HS games to be played later in the day, en mass. This would allow for the USSF referee pool to be more readily accessible from the start, otherwise it could be rather short lived.

    Now to specific "rules."

    The most important change that they could make immediately would be to abolish the count down clock. There are a considerable number of headaches that arise at the end of HS (and college) matches related to that infernal ticker. Teams sub somewhat freely, but where do you draw the line on time wasting. When would you pull the card, or stop the clock? If the referee were given control of the time, many of these situations would be eliminated as the referee would have the authority to add time (and not have to say so until the 40' or 80' marks). Stopping the clock on the other hand is a public gesture that always seems to create problems where there shouldn't be, but when it's in the interest of fairness... what are you going to do?

    If you fix the clock problem, then you can easily fix the method of substitution. Currently they allow the player on immediately BECAUSE of the count-down clock, this way subs don't take too long. Well if the ref can add time on, then no problem.

    Finally, everything needs to be simplified! The language of the book is far too complex and needs to be shorter. I know they are worried about law suits, but simplify the actual code and issue papers or even a case-book if you have to, but let's try to keep it simple please!
     
  16. Crewster

    Crewster Member+

    Jan 28, 2005
    Worthington
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Why can't high school soccer use the FIFA procedure of letting the referee add stoppage time based on his own judgment? I once saw a high school playoff game where the potential tying goal (disallowed) was scored exactly as time ran out. Making the correct call would have required a basketball-style clock review to determine if the ball had crossed the line in time or not. Why do we need this?
     
  17. campbed

    campbed Member

    Oct 13, 2006
    New Hampshire, USA
    I don't understand the previous two points on the clock. We have a clock we have fun controlling with nice big gestations, signals, and whistles in our Football games. We have a clock we control with nice big gestations, signals, and whistles in our Basketball games. Spectators see we are in control and doing something of added value.

    Ok, ok. But perhaps given NFHS covers all sports, it just seems natural to them that Soccer should have a clock, and the "officials" should be looking and acting the same no matter the sport. ( Because they are the same individuals doing different sports, right?)
     
  18. LiquidYogi

    LiquidYogi Member

    Sep 3, 2009
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    It's strange but when people run out the clock in soccer, everyone gets extremely upset. In football though it's just considered a good strategy. In California we have barely any visible clocks because the coaches and the refs think it's a completely ridiculous concept. The referees keep the time and there's no argument about it, even when there's a giant clock they tend to stop it at 2mins just for the fans sake. This is totally against the rules but that's how it's done and that's how everyone seems to want it. So yeah get rid of the clock sillyness, let the refs keep the time.
     
  19. GKbenji

    GKbenji Member+

    Jan 24, 2003
    Fort Collins CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You could get some traction for suggested changes by seeing what individual states have done, like Iowa eliminating soft reds (bet more states have done that). If it's a common change that gets us closer to FIFA LOTG, codify it in NFHS rules.

    Oh, and my pet peeve: PLEASE get rid of the "IFK for team in possession" rule on injuries etc. and go with a drop ball. Defending an IFK is NOT the same as defending during the run of play, and a free kick, even indirect, can drastically affect a game, even if not close to goal. A free service into the box is a huge advantage for the attackers.

    Plenty of ammo for this change, as it directly affected the outcome of a Colorado HS state championship match in 2007 (story here). Short version: player down with cramp gives opponents a free kick, off which they score the title-winning goal in OT.
     
  20. LiquidYogi

    LiquidYogi Member

    Sep 3, 2009
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Or you can drop it anyways and say no one was in possession of it. I know it's against the rules but sometimes a good referee goes beyond the rules to what's fair.
     
  21. Alberto

    Alberto Member+

    Feb 28, 2000
    Northern, New Jersey
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I have a suggestion to enforce changes which I believe would be of benefit to player development. FIFA issues a directive to the USA that they will be sanctioned and will be barred from participating in the world cup and any other FIFA sanctioned competition due to the national body lacking control over all soccer games, namely high school and college.
     
  22. LiquidYogi

    LiquidYogi Member

    Sep 3, 2009
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    While that would work...it does sound a bit totalitarian to me. There's plenty that FIFA have control over in the US, no reason to do force themselves on more. Change should come from within not without.
     
  23. Alberto

    Alberto Member+

    Feb 28, 2000
    Northern, New Jersey
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's not coming from within because NFHS and NISOA/NCAA see themselves as not needing to answer much less conform or modify their laws to the international body, FIFA. Heck, I bet if you asked them what the acronym IFAB was they would be clueless too.

    What's totalitarian about conforming to the LOTG? It's not like soccer is unique to just the USA. It's an international game and FIFA is a multi-nation organization. All members agree to abide by the LOTG. Countries that don't, get sanctioned. There is nothing draconian about the LOTG or asking national federations to abide by the rules everyone else abides by.
     
  24. Alberto

    Alberto Member+

    Feb 28, 2000
    Northern, New Jersey
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Here's another thought, I imagine that in England, Australia, and probably every other FIFA affiliated country there is a national soccer association that manages all aspects of the sport from youth, to high school, to college as well as amateur and professional associations and leagues. Players learn one universal set of laws from an early age. There are no odd modifications to the LOTG enacted by clueless idiots that are ignorant of the laws of soccer and wish to "Americanize" the sport so that it is in conformance with their own sports. Now let me ask again, who is more controlling FIFA, where consensus is reached by the member nations or a group of old men that enact changes to previously established laws because the concepts are foreign to them.
     
  25. LiquidYogi

    LiquidYogi Member

    Sep 3, 2009
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    It looks like to me that FIFA would be telling America's schools what they can and cannot do. I don't think it's in their best interest especially when USSF is huge and under their jurisdiction, NISOA and NFHS are really small beans compared to that.

    Also why would FIFA want to threaten these organizations or punish the USSF for something they have no control over. These are independent of eachother, so there's no reason to start blaming one for what the other ones do.
     

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