Discussion in 'FC Dallas' started by FC Uptown, May 1, 2007.
Major League Soccer hates soccer.
should one explain a joke?
"XXXXXXXX hates soccer" is a running joke.
usually given in response to someone bitching about something that is done for the love of the game or done by someone who is 100% pro soccer.
an example might be...
BS Poster 1: "Man that last article on 3rd Degree sucked."
poster in on the joke: "3rd Degree hates soccer."
This is the one thing about soccer that I really don't understand - everyone is sure as hell that their little kingdom is the right one and no one elses matters or is worth anything.
Personally, I agree that the NASL did incredible things to put soccer on the map here. No way MLS has any success without all the things the NASL did.
If I were to guess, there is also a lot of "We were the greatest" from the NASL that rubs MLS people the wrong way - mostly because (A) it isn't entirely true, and (B) without learning from the mistakes of the NASL, MLS is doomed to failure.
It is interesting that E66 takes the view that spending money on overpaid, over the hill foreign players is a mistake because most of what (I think, anyway) rubs MLS people the wrong way is people clamoring for spending more on "stars" to make MLS a higher quality league - and I think MLS poeple get that sense because it is mostly NASL people who say it should be done that way. I do think that probably is part of why MLS people sometimes bristle at comments from the NASLers.
Maybe another part of it is the lack of constructive criticism and more stone throwing. Of course, that is probably cyclical because there might be constructive criticism if the NASLers were approached in the right way. I don't know, I wasn't there.
What I do know, though, is that it drives me a bit nutty sometimes to see how one part of soccer in the US thumbs its nose at another all over the place. "I'm not going to follow womens soccer - its boring." "MLS isn't a quality league." All of that stuff - when more than any sport out there, soccer is the one that is the closest to breaking out if it could just overcome its own internal strife.
Let's build a sport, people. Let's build it together. Let's acknowledge that the NASL brought soccer to the consiousness of the US and began sowing the seeds that allowed the 94 World Cup to kick-start MLS and the USMNT and thank them for it. But let's also be realistic about growing MLS - until the average US player is better (actually, more of a depth thing than a quality thing - not enough of them yet), the league is going to have to take it step by step because one of the main problems with the NASL was the fact that it overpaid foreign talent that didn't have any staying power. You build a fanbase around players like Jason Kreis - a player who was here for a number of years. Like Oscar Pareja. Hopefully like Kenny Cooper Jr and Carlos Ruiz.
But let's remember that every unnecessary or unconstructive negative takes a step back. And think twice before firing off off the top of our heads rather than actually having an intellectual discussion. I know, I know, this is Big Soccer - okay, so maybe here isn't the right place.
Or maybe it is.
Considering the similar situation in terms of ownership between Tampa and Dallas, I think it is safe to say that we're familiar with the obstacles and that we found a way to overcome them.
I will say this, though - of the fans who did support Tampa, I was very surprised by one experience. In 2001, I went to the USA-Honduras/DC-Tampa game. I was standing near where the Tampa supporters were in Sam's Army. During the US game, they stood and cheered and gave Honduras the business. It was great.
When the Tampa game started, though, 90% of them shouted down the two Tampa fans who wanted to stand and make noise for their club team. They wanted to sit down and enjoy the match. I felt very sorry for the two fans who wanted to continue their active support, but lost some of my sympathy for Tampa fans in general. I know that isn't the best example as it is just a small sampling, but it is a good example of what I'm talking about in terms of what it takes to build the sport. See my other post.
That being said, with the right owner and SSV, I agree - Tampa Bay probably could support a team. But until you have someone willing to be that owner and build that stadium, not much else matters.
Considering how things finished with the NASL, and how most of those names were either outdated (Tea Men?) or owned by someone else, do you really blame them?
Wasting time and money? No. Needing to show the public that they weren't just a revived NASL for a second chance to fail - that was what it was. Yes, at times, there were very successful parts of the NASL. Tampa Bay, Tulsa, Minnesota, San Jose. But most of it wasn't. And to gain enough faith to continue, it has to start anew.
Much as I'm sure the new womens league will have to do.
I'm going to spend three nights this week "out in the community" with MLS players, including tonight in Duncanville. We have pretty much one of those every night of most weeks. The sales staff probably spends half their weekends out at youth tournaments.
I don't think it is a matter of not getting out in the community.
I think the ESPN article is thought-provoking, specifically with regards to soccer in New York.
Compare this Cosmos article to a description of a recent Red Bulls game(http://www.thisisamericansoccer.com/archives/2007/05/sorry_mom_i_kno_1.html#more).
Arena-ball, Clavijo-style, Nicol-games....not "The Beautiful Game".
Heather Mitts, Lesley Osborne, Hope Solo....yes "The Beautiful Game".
Simplistic. When you have a league that is based on American players - mostly athletic, with few natural No. 10s, what, honestly, do you expect?
And that comes from youth soccer - a whole different kettle of fish.
From the ESPN article, "Even in hiatus, the Cosmos are still victims of their own legacy. Perhaps it is the fear that the legacy of the team is bigger than MLS or because there are still people who view the team as the cause of the NASL's demise. Now, however, might be the right time to revisit the unmistakable magic that was the Cosmos."
Considering the expectations that are pretty obvious coming from the two Cosmos personalities quoted in the article, I think it is safe to say that now isn't the right time for the Cosmos to return to US soccer. Frankly, I think an MLS Cosmos team wouldn't do the old team justice - no way it is all that it once was.
I think, though, that part of that is the rub - can it ever be what it once was? All those stars? I think it flies in the face of what most US sports leagues have now - parity - a chance for every team to have a winner.
More to the point, it flies in the face of what makes smart business sense. Come on now - if you took any MLS team, moved them to New York and called them the Cosmos, Chinagilia would laugh at them as frauds. Why? Because they would have good but not spectacular talent. Look at what they pine about in that article - all the glamour, all the pomp and circumstance. Can you really justify that kind of attention for any current MLS team outside LA once Beckham gets there or maybe RBNY?
But to truly have what would be a Cosmos team that carried the Cosmos banner, soccer couldn't support it. Yet. Ever? Maybe, maybe not. But not right now.
IMO the Cosmos, at end of the day, did more harm than good. Other teams tried to keep up and the con men and crooked agents showed up and several of the "over the hill types" were fobbed off on unsuspecting owners and unscrupulous coaches and player personel directors ran the roost and lined their pockets... Without question these abuses led to the downfall of the Dallas Tornado and eventually the league.
I support MLS. I do not want to see the same mistakes made twice and in the signing of Shaka they were. As far as FCD goes I want it to start and end there. This "designated player" thing is a crock IMO and will only lead to the crooks becoming heavily involved once again and MLS is re-writing the book on naievity....
There is a man, living not far from PHP, who was the last G.M. of the Dallas Tornado. He would be more than willing, at no cost and less obligation to sit down with Hitch or the Hunts or whoever and explain just how these scams are pulled off. No-one from MLS has EVER bothered to call him.
e66, I agree as usual. the notion that we somehow have to "harness the legacy of the Cosmos" is just nonsensical, it's romanticizing something that was more or less a negative influence on soccer in America. what we do need is more than 7000 people at NY games. but using DPs to do that is akin to using steroids to win games. it might work over the short term (Cosmos), but in the long run you'll turn into a fat, old, impotent bald man who nobody likes and that eventually disappears (NASL).
What is your take on G. Chinaglia (former - NASL-style - GC, and current anti-MLS GC)?
Cosmos hates soccer.
see how that works?
but he said that SOCCER couldn't support the COSMOS. so...
soccer hates soccer.
I'm with Clive Toye on this one. Chinaglia is a legend in his own mind and should never be mentioned in the same breath as Pele, Beckenbauer and Carlos Alberto. Sure he scored a lot of goals in the NASL......Buzz's mom could have scored as many with Pele and two world cup winning captains setting her up....Clives quote from "once in a Life Time" goes something like this...."Georgio Chinaglia scored a lot of goals, speaks English with a Welsh accent and thats the nicest thing I can say about him"
whereas Georgio's quote from the same film, when asked about comments that he treated his friends favorably and ran the Cosmos into the ground, was...
*sly smile* "...heh heh heh."
Because Chinaglia won't be the "best player" on the team? (In Chinaglia's mind of course)
Cosmos exisisted during a time when the domestic leagues in Europe had foreign player limits....so the idea that players could just hop around and find the best deal didn't exist. There was no Bosman rule. And the TV money wasn't nearly as big...there were no international rights to speak of. And even still, in that environment of being able to reasonably afford big stars, they couldn't make money. Can you imagine how expensive it would be to have a Cosmos today? And how much money they would bleed?
Does the name NY "Cosmos" evoke more negative connotations than NY "Red Bulls"?
okay. what are you saying though?
On balance and in retrospect, the Cosmos were a disaster for the NASL and the Red Bulls are paying the price in no attendence to this day.