Yes but if Canada makes a good run (say makes the round of 16) there’s going to be a large groundswell of chatter for Jessie Marsch. And more generally I think Marsch plays a very high variance style which isn’t always sustainable in the long run but could lead to upsets in a tournament format.
I get that, but I still think it's basic as hell "analysis." It's one thing for a fan to do it but these guys are supposedly paid to know something. Everyone was raving about Marsch after a lucky as hell Copa América, where an easy draw, red cards and pen wins got them far, as if it meant anything. It's not a shock they haven't been very good since. Anyone pitching for Marsch because it could lead to upsets in a tournament environment isn't wrong factually, but clearly lacks any kind of strategic or long term plan for the program. Grabbing Marsch or someone who plays like Marsch is basically saying that underdog is the best the US can do. We should not try to have a real plan when we possess the ball; we're not going to ever be good enough to do that so we should just pack it in for four years in the hopes that we grab a feel good win or two ... and then at the end of the four years, wins or no, we're nowhere ahead of where we are. We supposedly have the best talent we've ever had. Then why would we not try to utilize it? What is our ten year plan? Our 20 year plan? How does Marsch fit into it?
Careful, you bring up Sacchi's "I never realized that in order to be a jockey you have to be a horse first," quote and you're likely to get stampeded by 99ers and 02ers and 14ers...
So true. Landon, in particular, seems like he'd be an awful coach. That dude cannot separate his personal feelings from any kind of evaluation or discussion.
Indeed. 30W-15D-23L across three USL Championship seasons. That's a perfectly good resume for someone that wants to take charge of USL side. I like his passion, and I find him to be a reasonably intelligent jock who sees the game well. His punditry stays pretty surface level, but I know he can see the game quite a bit better than he speaks on his podcast. It is a good podcast for finding out how two legendary US National Team players feel about everything, but you don't LEARN as much from it as I'd wish we could. But most pundits stay close to the vibes level, here in our own country, and abroad as well. Most English punditry is pretty terrible as well, and they have one of the most sophisticated, devoted, and financially-flush audiences out there
It *is* the best we can do. Barring an unprecedented cultural shift, the USMNT has hit its ceiling. If anything, we need to go *back* to that kind of style instead of pretending we can play Pep-ball. That's how teams like us punch above our weight. The underdog mentality is what made many fall in love with the USMNT. We have completely lost that with the Eurodiva generation. They think just because of the badge on their club jerseys they're so much better than those who came before them, even as they receive reality check after reality check. We are not a top 10 team, so why should we be trying to play like one?
There's so multiple wrong statements in this, but I will keep it to two. The first is that there's only two ways to play, some kind of negative bunker ball or desperate defensive game where we don't want to touch the ball, or tiki taka. There's a whole spectrum of how teams play, and a number of different ways. Another is that only Top 10 teams can play with the ball at all. That's also clearly wrong. There's a lot of ways to play and the US can play a lot of them, even against better teams. The problem with Marsch is that he completely gives up on doing anything in possession. He's hardcore Red Bull -- kick it forward quickly because it's okay, the press is our best offense. There's tons of teams that don't play high possession but have an idea what to do with the ball -- including other, much better coaches who have gone through Red Bull. Lastly, I find your general attitude defeatist. If you think you can or you think you can't, you're right. You can't get better if you don't try.
I know it sounds defeatist, but it's the realistic viewpoint. Every time it's the same song and dance. There are not many national teams who can say the made the RO16 at 4 of the past 6 World Cups, including a quarterfinal appearance and several competitive KO losses. The reality is to take that "next step" we would need millions of kids to have balls at their feet from the time they start walking. That's the kind of culture that results in developing players with the technical ability necessary to compete with those nations consistently. A lot of people just don't want to deal with that reality because they want to believe the team they/we are supporting has the potential to move forward, but it is in fact our reality. We're pretty much stuck where we are.
So true. It’s very possible this team comes out of World Cup with no signature wins. I think that is a distinct possibility. We are just not as talented as we think we are…
Again, you act as if there's a binary conversation here. There's not. Every progression is the result of a number of small steps and small changes. We absolutely can compete with those nations. Are we going to beat them consistently? No, but let's stop pretending all we can do is crowd our own box and pray.
I don’t think it’s at all true we’ve hit our ceiling or that we’re stuck. We continue to improve though that improvement is not linear. There’s absolutely still room for growth. But also style wise the game is always changing and evolving so I don’t think we should be focused on committing to a specific system anyways. I do think for alot of the supposed golden generation of players we’ve hit sort of worst case outcomes for a lot of them (like Reyna) but I also think our 2030 team is genuinely going to be the most talented we’ve ever had.
There's a difference between sheer talent and teams that come together to win at the right time. Just have the right mix with the right system at the right time with the right luck. ..........................there were France teams that didn't get out of the group stage. The margins are sooooooooooooooooo fine at the international level. Lucky bounce here. Ref call there. Unlucky hnndball over here. We must enjoy the journey with our talent, and not think the final destination of World Cup results tell the whole story.
My general requirements for a manager for the USMNT tactically are: We have to have a plan for every phase of play that isn't simply giving up or hopeful in nature. That means we absolutely do counter-attack because that is a phase of play and a vitally important one. But it also means that we don't bunker to the point that our counters are one or two players, because that's beyond hopeful (and we don't actually have those guys who convert at those numbers). We can play defensive and press, but I don't ever want the instruction with the ball to be overly aggressive to the point of 50/50 (or less balls) as the standard with the idea that our best offense is to get it back. I don't mind a direct plan that has a greater chance of success ... it's simply the abdication of a possession phase that I object to. And to be clear -- this goes all ways. Berhalter, at times, abandoned counter attacking too much. Pochettino has a plan for our set defense, I think, but it isn't working. Our inability to punish turnovers under Berhalter hurt us and our inability to sit back and defend will almost certainly hurt us with Poch. The reasons for this are simple. One, we need to be able to punish teams who give us the ball. People act like we always play teams who are far better and are going to control possession. Being unable to have a functioning possession offense is just another form of inflexibility. Every team has trouble beating a bunker; let's not try to attack one without a plan. And two teams playing defensive just becomes a crapshoot. Two, long term, if we ever want to be a Top 10 team, we need to be able to do this. And the National Team is absolutely a signal and influencer of style of play. Your selection changes, and that filters down. Young players see what gets you on the team. And the how the youth team selects and plays guys matters. We should continue to bring in coaches who can add the finer tactical details to improve the team. I think it's very clear that Pochettino has brought in a lot of strong tactical benefit to the build up as well as certain attacking patterns of play. I'd probably welcome Marsch for his ability to add something to the press ... but I do think we need to look to guys beyond their high level tactics and see who can implement the small changes that make a significant difference. They need to be aggressive. I think this is just a personality thing with our players, and I don't think it changes much in the future. I don't think sitting back and holding on fits the overall sporting culture, and it only worked in the past because we knew we were giant underdogs. We don't think that anymore, and that's not going to change.
I think injuries have been a bit harsher to us than most, but I'm not entirely sure that's true in the aggregate on development. Christian is definitely in his upper percentiles of probabilities, Adams, too, and I think McKennie is much better than anyone ever expected. Richards has really come through for a guy who started so late. Jedi added much more offense than many expected. Dest is pretty much the guy I expected. Johnny hasn't played very well for us but did anyone call him being at Atletico? And so on. Luna and Zendejas seem to be success stories. Tillman took a bit of time with us, but do people think he hasn't developed? Balogun seems on track for me and he's improved a ton on hold up play and defense. Reyna is the big disappointment, and I still think that's mostly injuries. Musah as well, in terms of development. I will always stan for Pomykal and that was definitely injuries. Guys like Dike and Big Pat got hurt, but I'm not sure either was going to be a star right now. I guess Sargent, maybe? Pepi's been slow but he's young and that's more PT than anything, perhaps. Certainly Turner's downturn in England was a big issue. Otherwise, I'm not sure our hit rate is particularly bad. We don't have centerbacks, but I there wasn't necessarily massive potential there ... I guess maybe McKenzie could be more solid. But Miles was injuries in part, at least, and the lack of youth development really might just be age -- most of our disappointments there are still pretty young. Weah has been the same player for a while, I guess, but I never thought he was going to be elite, either.
Injuries happen to all nations. We're not special in this regard. Other nations have players that suffer from torn Achilles or severe knee injuries. Its part of the sport. Hugo Ekitike will miss the World Cup after suffering a torn Achilles. Patrick Agyameng and Daryl Dike aren't the only players to suffer Achilles injuries. Its just that we're not as deep as the top 12 or so nations, so the injuries hurt our chances more. Whether its Berhalter or Pochettino or the next guy, navigating injuries is just part of the deal.
2030 is too far away. I remember thinking after the loss in the Confederations Cup final in 2009 that the team had a real shot to go far in 2010. Then the Charlie Davies car accident and the Oguchi Onyewu knee blowout in the span of a few months, and those dreams were in large part derailed. The four years between now and 2030 is forever. I recognize the OP wants us to discuss who best should succeed Poch, but part of me is like, "F#kc that. Now is the time. Today, we have a World Cup on home soil. This is our chance. Poch needs to get this golden generation of players to perform. We will never have a better opportunity." There will be plenty of time to worry about the next manager later.
I think Gio is the huge disappointment because there was a possibility he could have turned into a world class player. That’s the sort of player that if he hits he takes you to the next level. But even someone like Dest whose a good player never hit the heights of playing for Barcelona level good. McKennie and Jedi but I think best case scenario whereas Pulisic hit a good outcome but not quite at the level as where he was during project restart when he was one of the best players in the EPL. Adams I think has been a lot of bad injury luck also. Miles Robinson also injuries obviously. Musah has also been a huge disappointment in terms of his development since the last World Cup. Weah falls into the camp of not bad but also didn’t have really hit the higher levels. Richards on the other hand had some bad injury luck but seems to be coming along. Even someone like Matt Turner who was hitting elite shot stopping numbers in MLS fell back to earth. Sargent definitely didn’t get there though Pepi I think should be fine if he can stay healthy. Balogun on the other hand seems to be coming on so there’s that. Someone like Pomykal I guess more speculative but everyone seems to have loved his potential. But I do think this next generation will fill in the gaps while the current generation should still mostly be around come 2030 (and their equivalent for the 2026 cycle is basically nonexistent).
Some of this is expectations, though, and how we measure. For example: should we have projected Sergiño Dest to become a plus defender at the highest levels? I'm not saying it was impossible, but I also don't think it was the unlikely outcome that he never did. I didn't expect Dest to stick at Barca. He has the skillset, but he's a bit dribbly for them, especially when they have talented dribblers at the wings, and I am very much not shocked that his defensive discipline stuck him on the bench. I'm a bit more surprised he didn't get used more at Milan, but I don't think that changes the player. He's a very talented offensive player who is a much better offensive player relative to peers at RB. But his defensive focus is suspect -- and has always been -- and that means that you either take the risk defensively at RB or move him to RW where he's good but hardly elite status. I think Sergiño the player is probably somewhere around the 45th percentile or so of where I projected him to be ... not like 25th or something. He could have developed better defense and become a much more well rounded player in the last four years, but maybe that was a 1 in 3 chance? Mindset changes are tough. I know there was lots of dreaming on Weah -- he's at PSG! But I don't know that I'm shocked here, either. Good but not great skills across the board. Very athletic. I do wish he had maybe stayed lower level longer and played at striker or winger longer -- like stay at Celtic for a few years. But I'm not shocked he's been moved to defense quite a bit as that was always more reliable than attack. And there's nothing about his then or now game that screams the ability to have, say, consistent 15-20 goal contribution seasons at Top 4 level. Which you need to keep a spot at a club that will pay you. Significant player improvement happens all the time, even in a players' 20s. But in a 4 year period, I really don't think it's the norm for a player. Some do, but it's less than 50%. Most improvement is smaller, tactical and soccer IQ bumps. Strength is reliable. But while some guys will improve drastically ... I think Weah or Dest's progressions are far closer to a 50 percentile expectation than even someone like Christian, who has clearly improved quite a bit across the board from his Dortmund days.
I think the thing with the golden generation hype though was the fact that guys like Dest were getting Barcelona at a very young age. Which was driving the hype for this generation but which wasn’t quite warranted. And I say that still thinking Dest is a very good player.
You use the word hype and that's accurate. I don't know that we've seen below average than expected development so much as the collective fan expectations were inaccurately high. We all know the causes, but the reality is that the fanbase rarely honestly evaluates our players in the context of the full world player pool. Our collective fanbase expectations are often 75th percentile and up, in reality, I think.
I suspect we've all learned a lot about having young players at big clubs we didn't know as much about before this generation. I thought you were at Dortmund or Barca at that age and that was it! You were a star forever. Injuries, form, tactics and coaching personalities have taught me that all of that can be temporary. There is a new batch of youngsters who may again reach those clubs young but this time I will be in a more wait and see mode from experience.
Marsch? Canada had been 38th on the elo when ne took over. They currently sit 25th. In that span Canada have in regular time- drawn France beaten Peru--in competition drawn Chile--in competition drawn Uruguay--in competition beaten the US drawn Mexico beaten the US--in competition drawn Colombia drawn Ecuador Canada have a well-defined modern style of play. It doesn't matter whether one likes that style or not. And it's not an underdog style: they're not bunkering and praying or even sitting deep and countering. Marsch to the US? No. We don't have the athletes to successfully implement his tactics. Canada are one of the fastest teams in world football. Maybe the fastest. Players, like Bombito, Davies, Buchanan, and Johnston have recorded sprint speeds in the top-5 of their respective leagues. The US don't have that kind of team speed. How Canada do in the WC will deepen on-- 1. the return to fitness of their defenders. Their entire starting backline had been out at one point 2. Marsch's ability to demonstrate improvement in game management 3. Canada's ability to keep their heads; improvement is needed. Best of luck to Marsch and Canada.
Marsch has intentionally burned that bridge to USSF leadership. Zero chance. He'd probably argue that the USSF has burned that bridge to him. I suspect that the USSF will go back to a lower-price domestic candidate. We'll have to see if some billionaire sugar daddy want to bankroll our coach forever. [Heck, the Canadian federation isn't paying Marsch either.] [Ken Griffin is currently paying Poch's salary. In large part anyway. Ken Griffin has been in the news lately. Ken Griffin pushes back after Mamdani features his $238 million penthouse in tax-the-rich video] It doesn't have to be somebody currently available, but we have guys like Pareja and Curtin available. They might be willing to work on an initial 2 year contract to get us thru the 2028 Olympics. [I think the Olympics are so important that the next coach will be heavily involved. Depending on what's going on that summer] Both of those guys have a history of working with young players. Then we can see how its going and extend thru the World Cup or not.