Alert: Next decades Netherlands will be the new Hungary of Europe. Once great, but slipped into mediocrity.

Discussion in 'The Netherlands' started by DRB300, Sep 3, 2012.

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Will the Netherlands be the new Hungary of Europe? Once great, but slipped into mediocrity?

  1. That's an understatement. It is going to be far worse.

    10.9%
  2. I agree, we will slip into severe mediocrity. Hungary sounds about right.

    5.5%
  3. No, not really, we will be the new Belgium, that so now and then will produce a Hazard through luck.

    20.9%
  4. No, football is a cyclical thing, in a few years we will be as strong as always.

    46.4%
  5. What a ridiculous Poll. Netherlands will even improve over time and finally win the WC.

    16.4%
  1. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    What do you think about the rage regarding his diving while bragging comments of other teams (regarding "get under his skin") went by relatively unnoticed. That wasn't framed as 'he admits dirty play', 'he admits cheating'.
    If I'm allowed to say, Thomas Muller was also pretty handy in a few games, even in the final he angered the Argentine players with his theatre if I might put it in this way.
     
  2. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    I have no problem they take the noble stance. Robben overdoes his falling down from tackles. I understand that turns people off at times. I can also understand Krul intimidating the opponent can come across as unsympathetic. What I have a problem with is the hypocrisy.

    [​IMG]


    Where was the outrage? No, the Australia match is perceived as a great one. Imagine a Dutch player doing that to Cahill. Jump material for bashing Netherlands.

    Uruguay got the same treatment as Netherlands in 2010. Suarez biting. Had China dropped the bomb on Tibet, less was written about it. The outrage was insane. I really started to question people sanity and ability to think for themselves in the eye of mass hysteria. Where was the outrage when this happened:

    http://gfycat.com/GenerousEnchantingInganue

    This?

    http://gfycat.com/GiantEnchantedBasilisk

    This?

    http://gfycat.com/SevereFoolhardyCuttlefish

    This?

    http://gfycat.com/RespectfulJauntyBassethound


    France was dirty. Oh were they dirty. They elbowed their way out of the group an beyond. Where were the suspensions for those players? In what world do people prefer hard elbows to a bite? I rather get a bite. That first elbow above from Sakho is a potential concussion.

    I also think that ankle breaker was the dirtiest action of this WC. Guy could just carry on with only yellow. Matuidi that was I think.

    I am just stunned how papers and FIFA let France get away with what they did, but went mad when Suarez bit a defender.
     
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  3. Antario2

    Antario2 Member

    Jan 29, 2012
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    FIFA is only interested in the image of the World Cup. It's a product to sell. If there is no media outrage, they don't care what happens in a game. If we look at Qatar 2022 even human lives don't mean much to the organisation.
     
  4. Roofvogel

    Roofvogel Member

    -
    Netherlands
    Jun 17, 2014
    Club:
    FC Groningen
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Yes, this was discussed before elsewhere. There were even people who said a bite or a scratch is worse than an elbow because of its association with children and women. The whole outrage and 4 month ban over a bite while those French players are ignored the big attention just shows where such popular cultural norms come from.
     
  5. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Same thing about people defending Neuer on the knee up challenge to Higuain. I understand they teach keepers to do this but it's mainly when they are being challenged by multiple players on set plays. There was simply no excuse to do this one v one. IMO it was worse than the Neymar challenge. While the Dutch team had a fair number of fouls called on them, I can't remember really injury threatening ones or nasty one like the Brazilian midfielders did to James.
     
  6. Roger Allaway

    Roger Allaway Member+

    Apr 22, 2009
    Warminster, Pa.
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No comparison at all. It is now 40 years after Holland's greatest team of 1974. Holland is still among the best teams in the world. Hungary's greatest team was 1954. Where was Hungary 40 years later, in 1994? No comparison.
     
  7. Antario2

    Antario2 Member

    Jan 29, 2012
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    The Guardian does seem to have an anti Dutch stance, but even David Winner said there was a 'bit' of it left in the English media. The BBC article does praise Van Persie (which says a lot about the writers understanding of football).

    Brazil on the other hand seems to have an image made of teflon. That team hasn't played beautiful football since 1982 and was the most thuggish team in the last two world cups, yet they still have a huge following around the world.
     
  8. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Maybe true, but all starts with the # of fans you have.
    http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...oyalty-changed-during-the-world-cup.html?_r=0

    With fanbase no money, no resources and also no media to cheer for you and serve as your advocate.
     
  9. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    It's also because of their number of fans and the interests sponsors have in the country. What do you think that happens if you show negativity against Brazil? Undoubtedly sponsors will start to pressure you as media. Certainly those things happen.
    Brazil is, in one sentence, too important to neglect. Taking a stance against them is suicide and not in the interest of any of the involved parties (not in interest of FIFA, media, marketeers).

    Example:
    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/13/business/media/biggest-scorer-in-world-cup-maybe-univision.html

    They (Univision) will be reluctant to be critical of Mexico, Argentina, Brazil. As you can read, Univision was very happy Argentina made it into the finals. You can read that as: negativity towards them, if applicable, isn't in their interest.
     
  10. It is remarkable that of the youngsters snapped away from the Feyenoord Academy 9as of other Dutch ones) no one made it into this succesfull Orange team (despite a poster claiming that these kids are having advantages by being there, such as being strong). The guys who stayed here and went through the traditional Dutch path with getting Eredivisie experience first now shone on the World Cup stage. Eat that idiots moving to those EPL academies. As they are incapable of preparing our talents, you now can understand why the English National team is glaring sub standard!
     
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  11. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    #936 DRB300, Jul 14, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2014
    The thread title was chosen to spike interest and provoke people to react. This is a pretty small sub forum, yet the thread almost hits 1000 reactions. It worked :). I agree with the point you make though. Netherlands has maintained high level now for more than 40 years. That being said I recently saw Hungary in this table:

    Strongest country's per decade

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    It was not like Hungary did not exist before their 1954 team or stopped existing after that. They did drop out the top moving towards the '80. It is interesting why they dived so hard. In the recent Olympics I saw Hungary doing very well for the small population they have:

    2012 Olympics with two tables (total and gold medals per capita):

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    But also look at their all time performance (total medal and gold medals per capita):


    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]


    It's not like they do not know how deliver top performances anymore on the world stage, yet in football they dropped off to the level of losing 8-0 against Netherlands in the recent qualification campaign. It's a weird case, Hungary.



    I see this thread now more as a place of refection on the state of Dutch football to pick up things that go wrong but also right. Cheers.
     
  12. Belgian guy

    Belgian guy Member+

    Club Brugge
    Belgium
    Aug 19, 2002
    Belgium
    Club:
    Club Brugge KV
    Between Origi, Benteke, Lukaku and Batshuayi we should be set at CF for the next decade. :)
    Origi is apparently perfectly two-footed.
     
  13. Abhirup

    Abhirup Member

    Nov 26, 2013
    Kolkata
    Nat'l Team:
    India
    Could anybody please answer this??
    Does the KNVB place enough emphasis on futsal?? I believe this was their 2010 master plan :
      • a target of 130,000 registered players
      • a top-ten position in the world ranking for the national team
      • structural participation of the national team in World and European championships
        I believe futsal plays an integral part in developing skills of a young footballer..If successfully implemented, it can lay the foundations of a bright future for the national side.
        Cheers
     
  14. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands

    How I imagine Belgians these days when there is again an new emerging talent for their NT:


    [​IMG]
     
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  15. Belgian guy

    Belgian guy Member+

    Club Brugge
    Belgium
    Aug 19, 2002
    Belgium
    Club:
    Club Brugge KV
    I saw that VI editor Süleyman Öztürk likened Origi's style a bit to that of a young Kluivert. I sorta can see that.
     
  16. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    With speed. He is faster than Kluivert ever was, though Kluivert was fast as well. Origi has a real dribble though.

    On that note, one more gif for Belgium and all their new toys:


    [​IMG]
     
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  17. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands

    I actually remember reading an article where the Dutch FA was suggesting that more indoor football should be on the menu for the Dutch youth. If I come across the article I will post it.
     
  18. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    I am actually a big advocate of 4 vs 4 in training and more importantly, outside of training. I think that clubs need to start a competition within their club and outside training hours exclusively in 4 vs 4. So training in Tuesday and Thursday, then 4 vs 4 competition on Wednesday for everybody who wants to participate. Changing teams all the time and after every win the 4 players get 3 points. New game after 10 minutes or 15 minutes and this for a season long. The person in the club with the most points should get a big reward, though maybe due to age there should be some boundaries and maybe multiple winners for different age groups. I do think it would be fun to have more players participating than only from their own year per competition.

    I can not remember being more stoked to play football than in 4 vs 4. Much cooler than 11 vs 11 as I had the ball all the time and the individual acknowledgement was pretty big as you carried your own points with you from game to game and from week to week.
     
  19. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    When I was growing up (many years ago:p), we used to play a lot of 3 vs 3 basketball on 1/2 the court. There was much more open space and passing and dribbling skills were developed very fast. Also not as much fouling either. there was no organization, just a bunch of us kids playing ball (the only organized sport we had back then was Little League Baseball). It was a different era and we really didn't have any distractions (TV, video games, shopping malls, etc); just sports.
     
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  20. Antario2

    Antario2 Member

    Jan 29, 2012
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Futsal is mainly used by players in winter when the pitches outside can't be used. Most of the academies have integrated it in to their youth programs. For a long time it was a sport for elderly players and pub teams, it still has to deal with that stigma. Participation has doubled over the last 25 years, but it's not anywhere as popular as normal football.

    On the other hand street soccer is growing in popularity, partly due to the success of the Cruyff courts and similar municipal efforts. It's very similar to futsal.
     
  21. Abhirup

    Abhirup Member

    Nov 26, 2013
    Kolkata
    Nat'l Team:
    India
    Good..then that's certainly a step forward in producing creative players IMHO.. :)
    Here's what Seedorf had to say about the youth development model followed in Brazil...

    In Brazil because of the level of individual quality, coaches give their players that freedom. They want their players to run at people. If you’ve got two men marking you, players here think they can beat them both no problem, and that’s what they’ll try and do. If you did that in theNetherlands they’d yell at you: “Two players? Pass the ball back, keep it moving.” It’s a different mindset. One isn't necessarily better than the other, but I certainly feel closer to the Brazilian way.

    http://www.fifa.com/world-match-centre/news/newsid/215/765/2/index.html


    One has to wonder if the Dutch are becoming too regimental in training their youth players..Whether this approach is good or not can be debated though. I personally feel that youth players need to exercise freedom in displaying creativity..
    I think i read an article on Cruyff's velvet revolution, which aims to rectify this problem. This is what David Winner had to say about the whole thing:

    They’ve torn up the old system based education idea – which is that everybody plays 4-3-3 and everybody learns their position and everybody’s tactically and technically drilled – and the new system is to emphasise individuality and creativity.

    “[It is] intensive tuition by the best football minds in Holland.

    “The whole idea is to develop extremely original, gifted individuals.

    “Systems come later – they think that’s the thing everybody’s going to be copying a decade from now.

    http://www.newstalk.ie/David-Winner-on-Bergkamp-Cruyff-and-the-Ajax-revolution
     
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  22. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    How do they measure if the Cruyff courts are a success? I wondered about this recently. Of course the foundation will say it is a success, just wondered if they are used enough.
     
  23. Antario2

    Antario2 Member

    Jan 29, 2012
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    An example is Amsterdam south east district which contains 3 courts. The local government held an investigation in to the utilization of the courts in 2013. The number and age of participants (and a number of other variables) were measured on randomly picked days over a period of time to create a representative sample. On average 500 players of different age categories used each court per week. The city considers 200 participants per week the bottom line for the investment to be worthwhile. In that sense the courts were a success.
     
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  24. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Interesting. Wonder if they also included the average time in their research of how much each player was on the court per week.
     
  25. Hayaka

    Hayaka Member+

    Jun 21, 2009
    San Francisco North Bay, Bel Marin Keys
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Denmark
    That "strongest countries per decade" chart has some oddities. For example, how was Argentina #1 in the 1950s, ahead of Hungary, Germany, Brazil? They certainly didn't show it at the World Cup. Then in the 1970s Holland is only 5th and Argentina drops to 9th?

    It must give quite a bit of weight to friendlys.
     

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