Alert: Next decades Netherlands will be the new Hungary of Europe. Once great, but slipped into mediocrity.

Discussion in 'The Netherlands' started by DRB300, Sep 3, 2012.

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Will the Netherlands be the new Hungary of Europe? Once great, but slipped into mediocrity?

  1. That's an understatement. It is going to be far worse.

    10.9%
  2. I agree, we will slip into severe mediocrity. Hungary sounds about right.

    5.5%
  3. No, not really, we will be the new Belgium, that so now and then will produce a Hazard through luck.

    20.9%
  4. No, football is a cyclical thing, in a few years we will be as strong as always.

    46.4%
  5. What a ridiculous Poll. Netherlands will even improve over time and finally win the WC.

    16.4%
  1. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    #851 DRB300, Jun 21, 2014
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2014
    Aissati always came across as a good quiet kid. Too bad he never made it to the top.
     
  2. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    I watched back some footage from past games and it struck me that Netherlands has become a hoofing team. Cillessen must be up there with the keepers kicking it up the field the most. We are a route 1 team now and do not trust in our ability to play football.

    Our goals were turnover goals mostly. Not pure own creation goals. That also sends the same message home. Teams relying on that do not have a cultured possession game, a fortiori it tells us that the team does not believe in their own ability to really create something.

    That has all to do with the simple fact the ability is probably not there, or not up to an effective level on a WC. The fact we relied on reaction football vs Australia is something to meditate on. While everybody is dancing the polonaise and focusing in the W's, we might have witnessed a black page in Dutch football. We panicked and were unable to really football ourselves out of Australian pressure......


    Chile is an interesting game now.
     
  3. Mr.S

    Mr.S Member

    Oct 22, 2011
    Raised this in the Aus game where I saw Cillessen kicking the ball a 100 times to loose possession almost every time. My blood boils to see this kind of a play. Even more surprising that Krul was dropped for poor distribution and slow build up. So many GK Kicks are made by a team who has no confidence to retain and build from possession
     
  4. sonicdream

    sonicdream Member

    Sep 27, 2002
    West of Suez canal
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    That was clearly a v Gaal strategy. Send the ball high up the pitch and thereby eliminating all possibilities of the defense playing out from the back under pressure. With the 50% chance of losing the ball, then we'll fight for possession but not in our 1/3rd half.

    Sure, that's a recognition that the skillset is limited against the highest quality opponents.

    Then again, I suspect no one ever had expectations that this team can play its normal game and compete for the cup. Once the defensive strategy was announced, I already suspect scrappy matches, but effective and possibly deadly against top teams.

    If anything, this is a clear indication of wanting to win. I don't really have an issue with it and it may be too early to tell is such methodology will backfire in future, in terms of football development and mentality. This is the only world cup in my living memory that I've seen Oranje make such defensiv-oriented preparations, but then again I don't remember a tougher World Cup draw than this one in Brazil.

    So much of our worries was getting past that huge first obstacle that was Spain. Truth is, no one really knows nor can gauge just how much of a psychological impact we created on Spain to contribute to their demise.
     
  5. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Sure Cillessen kicked way too much, so much that maybe his leg will fall off today. I think he did more kicking in the last two matches than he did all season at Ajax. But look at the alternative. Who does he have in the middle of the pitch to help bring the ball up: Vlaar, de Vrij, de Jong, de Guzman. Do any of these players inspire confidence? This is where the shortcoming is, not with Cillessen. In club football he's pretty quick about getting the ball moving. I really think this is a Van Gaal tactic and it can only be altered by bringing in younger players who are adept at whole field football. Van Gaal has one job to do, get the team as far as possible into the tournament, full stop.
     
  6. sonicdream

    sonicdream Member

    Sep 27, 2002
    West of Suez canal
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Actually Orange, at Ajax Jesper always looked like on the verge of making a huge mistake with his hoofs, no? He cuts it very, very close when opponents come rushing at him
     
  7. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Thinking of Vermeer perhaps? I can't remember Cillessen making a major mistake on distribution this season.
     
  8. sonicdream

    sonicdream Member

    Sep 27, 2002
    West of Suez canal
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    no, I'm referring to Cillessen's many close calls. But let's not jinx him now....!
     
  9. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Well, this is pure reaction football.
     
    Roofvogel repped this.
  10. BaritoPutra

    BaritoPutra Member+

    Jan 26, 2007
    Netherlands need center backs with good build up and are comfortable with the ball on their feet. The recent generation of CB's (Mathijsen, Ooijer, Heitinga, and Vlaar) have been very awful in terms build up. Plus having limited destroyers like Van Bommel or De Jong complicates the matter because now there are too many clueless heads at the back especially when they are in possession. The current crops like De Vrij and BMI are not that good either, though I don't want to be overly harsh on them as they just are just scratching the surface and they can still improve. I've seen BMI made some good vertical passes in the qualifiers, he needs to be more confidence. Vetlman and Rekik are perhaps the best of the bunch when it comes to the ability to support attack. Add Strootman and Van Ginkel in the midfield, hopefully we will soon see some free-flowing movements just like the Dutch football used to be.
     
  11. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    I think you are right, though Veltman makes a lot of personal errors. I am quite interested in Kongolo. Rekik is not that good on ball, but is a real defender. If he fails at City I can still see him having a good career elsewhere.

    Van Ginkel+Stroot is not a guarantee of real good football. Both are leaders and grit players are just general good footballers, but not very refined I would say. Really good footballers are Ake and Nouri. Maher is also a good footballer, but he lacks any grit for now. Come to think about it. Ake can also play as left CB. Kongolo has played a lot of right CB at Feyenoord I believe. That could be a really good partnership in build up.

    Just a playful thing from me now:

    I have noticed how Sneijder and Depay worked wonders together in the Australia game. Constantly Sneijder going outside of Depay and then Depay going inside. That resulted in a very dangerous dynamic. Nouri is very good in working that left wing as a left half with his left winger. I was amazed by his performance in this respect in a recent tournament. I am curious if Depay as an inverting winger could create a dynamic with a Nouri in time. We saw today that van Gaal moved heaven and earth to find an answer for the feared Sanchez-Isla partnership. He came up with Kuyt and Blind. Many coaches will not do so such a thing though (not the brain or guts to do it) and that is why I am always interested in powerful partnerships that provide a spark for the NT. Remember England with Scholes, Lampard and Gerrard as midfielders for England? Did not click. Such things can keep countries hostage. Therefor I like to look at possible partnerships between 2, maybe if lucky, even 3 players that work wonders with each other.

    I think that under Hiddink I would like to see something what they do at City. 2 box to box players (Yaya and Fernandinho) in Stroot and van Ginkel and then 3 creative players in front of that with a striker on top. Might not be the most fluent variant, I do think it could be exciting .... in theory :D
     
  12. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Central defenders that are good on the ball are a rarity across all teams. Look at what Chile did, they basically had three DMs playing on the back line. Good on the ball and quick but seriously lacking in height. If there is one complaint to the Bielsa approach (he started this trend four years ago and it's been continued under Sampaoli) it's that they are vulnerable on set pieces. Both Veltman and Denswil at Ajax are very good on the ball but they are also quite young. Denswil has a lot of promise but really is too loose with the ball and his positioning is not all that great; maybe these things will improve, I don't know. Veltman has a lot of promise for the NT but he's not as big as de Vrij. Another player who is good on the ball is Bruma but he is really slow and lacks awareness. As DRB notes Rekik has promise. I've not seen much of Kongolo to have any impression.
     
  13. I'm getting bloody annoyed by people moaning about the kind of players we lack at the moment and successively moaning about the kind of soccer we play. If you havenot got the players to play a certain kind of play it would be ridiculous to do it anyway, unless you are a fan of the lunatic "charge of the light brigade" mentality.

    And as with most people around me I'm getting more and more at ease when we play a match and less and less anxious. I was watching the Chili game with the certain feeling we would wrap it up without a hitch.
     
    Cevno, TFC Ajax and Orange14 repped this.
  14. Roofvogel

    Roofvogel Member

    -
    Netherlands
    Jun 17, 2014
    Club:
    FC Groningen
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Those people (including me) seem to be in the minority though.
     
  15. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
  16. Quackmore

    Quackmore Member

    Jun 5, 2011
    The Netherlands
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Watching Van Persie and Robben playing the way they are, it seems like they easily have another tournament in them. Maybe another WC even.
     
  17. he so scrumptiouz

    Jun 1, 2006
    amsterdam
    EC sure, but WC I really don't think so.. RVP is about to turn 31 in 2 months time. Both players are known to be quite injury prone and I think they'll surely be sidelined for a couple of months the upcoming season. The likes of Zivkovic, Kishna should be ready for the next WC.
     
  18. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
  19. thatkid

    thatkid Member

    Jun 21, 2010
    Netherlands
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    That transition is supposed to be happening right now.. We are missing an entire generation of players.. (Afellay's generation) Because they all flopped.

    In 4 years time we are hoping that a lot of our young players like Strootman, Depay and a lot of players who are still in the youth academies make huge steps. At the 2018 world cup the average age of our plays on the field will be something like 21.
     
  20. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    This is an exchange between us some time ago:

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    [​IMG]
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Mission accomplished.

    Can we close this thread now? :D
     
  21. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    What line up do you have in mind? Just for fun.
     
  22. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #872 PuckVanHeel, Jul 1, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2014
    That was of 5 July 2012, good find.

    Half a year ago:
    :)

    You ofc opened this thread.
     
  23. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands

    I did and still with good reason.

    Would you agree with me that we now play even more poor football in ball possession than under van Marwijk? Has Netherlands ever been more poor in the ball possession phase in their (more recent) history than in the game vs Australia? That was an humiliating game IMO. However we won and basically advanced from the group phase by doing so. For me that is not the end all though.

    IMO looking at the result of reaching the quarter final of a WC is not sensitive enough to pick up important signals. A good coach, defensive tactics, living off the quality that was produced in the past (RvP, Robben, Sneijder) can rather blur the truth than give a good measure point of where we stand.

    I am glad with the quote you posted of mine as it was a reaction on a table that contained total team values. That has always been my angle at these things. Marketability makes the numbers impure, certainly for English players I guess, but they are still very interesting to keep a good eye on. If we drop out of top 10 lists in that regard and in a structural way, then it will catch up to us sooner or later. Money is for me an important indication of things we discuss here.

    I think where we played with a block of 6 (or 7 with the keeper) under van Marwijk, we now play with block of 9 under van Gaal, hoofing the ball to RvP or Robben when we can. We basically are milking the old generation and let the new function as foot soldiers to serve them and work for them. Why is that, other than them not having enough quality to stand up against their peers in foreign country's? Also Sneijder recently said that he was a "worker" as he was not even close to his 2010 form. It's strange there was nobody from a new generation to threaten him after Maher collapsed.

    Only mitigating circumstances regarding all this is that our strong midfielders have been taken out:

    Strootman
    van Ginkel
    Afellay

    The NT would be 1 level better with them running around.
     
  24. Mr.S

    Mr.S Member

    Oct 22, 2011
    Afellay is overall a poor, mediocre footballer who should not considered. Has barely played for the NT for a long while and is rumoured to to be on the verge of a 2M move to Mareseille. Him & Elia are the definition of a failed talent. Don't know why they should be considered.

    Depay has broken out from the new talent. He has expected my expectations, cut his endless shots and has show maturity beyond his ears. He would certainly break into the squad and provide a brilliant Winger.

    As the squad grows the CB's get better maybe the 4-3-3 will come back. The backline is too weak at the moment
     
  25. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Do you still believe in Van Ginkel? I know he has been injured but it did not seem Mourinho had a lot of faith in him, regardless of the injury.
    Don't know how his contract looks like, but if the relationship between Vitesse and Chelsea is really very intricate it might mean Van Ginkel stays at Chelsea for a while. In the worst case scenario a 2nd Afelley.

    [I'm interested in what Vitesse will do with their youth academy, will it flourish because of Chelsea or only cripple?]

    I agree with everything you say above.
     

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