Due to my inactivity, I left some things unfinished on Mbappe that i would like to close, if anyone cares about it anymore. First of all, when i said he is not top 20 in the world that was a figure of speech rather than well thought out thought. In that moment i didnt have exactly 20 names in my mind that i was for sure are better than Mbappe. Just like i am sure carlito didnt have exactly 40 names in his mind when he said that Mbappe could potentially be top 40 of all time. My point is that holding against me that statement is dishonest because it is nit picking. I believe that my intentions by saying that he is not top 20, were clear. If they werent, now they will be: What i meant by the top 20 remark is that he is not in the same tier as players that would be considered one of the best in the world (using my previous reference: he is a clear 3rd tier player) Having that said, this is not "i was wrong" speech and that he is indeed top 20. It's still questionable. I would have to break it down and compare him with all the candidates respectively, just like i did with Salah and then conclusion would arise... i am not going to do that. Thats unnecessary and daunting work for no serious benefit. What i am going to do is summarize my arguments for why Mbappe is still not (wasnt in 2018/19 season) the top tier or 2nd tier player and simultaniously answer some of the criticism i got for top 20 nominated players (the argument is applicable to other players). The main reason why i believe Mbappe 2018/19 can not be considered one of the very best players in the world is his experience, or lack thereof. Mbappe is 20 and he still hasnt experienced a lot of things in football, which i believe to be of instrumental significance. It makes him less of a player regardless of talent. There are several reasons why i believe lack of experience does that, some of which are inspired by recent events in my personal life. You can visualize, prepare for new experiences in whatever way you want, but nothing beats the actual experience itself. I am absolutely sure that every one of you can relate to that in countless areas of your life, be it playing football, meeting people, job interviews, approaching women,.... Just doing, experiencing something for the very first time is of immense utility. Already 2nd time, you are much better at it, let alone players with the full decade of experiences. You see where i am going with it, right? What i am talking about can be beautifully demomstrated with the example of Cristiano Ronaldo. Ronaldo, by many, has experienced his peak in either early 20s or mid/late 20s, virtually nobody on this forum would put the 30+ year old version of Cristiano as the best one, yet it's exactly that version of Cristiano that has become the goalscoring machine in big games. I dont have it, but i am sure the difference between goal stats in KO stages of ucl before 2016 and after it are huge. Why is that? It's because playing in big games for so many years, you learn how to deal with the experience such ocassion brings and that allows you to perform to your best. Playing those kind of big games under pressure became, literally, a routine to him. Its the experience that transformed his stats. The experience Mbappe doesnt have. Some of the firsts Mbappe hasnt experienced yet: - a heartbreaking loss (up to United) - a serious injury - problems with coaches - problems with teammates - overcoming a struggling performance within the game itself - missing an important penalty - serious criticism - a bad form - huge expectations - struggling then eventually delivering under huge expectations - being by far the best individual for his team and winning a significant game - being by far the best individual for his team and still losing a significant game - experiencing an opposing manager building his team around him trying to stop him specifically (double-teaming, etc.) - overcoming such situations ... For Mbappe, career has been mostly sunshine and rainbows. Being part of 3 great (attacking) teams. Getting lucky to already win several thropies and having an adequate care and attention. Btw, dont tell me that being cared for doesnt matter. Rashford, 21, has more career goals than Messi at the same age simply because Rashford is being spoonfeeded to succeed. Already has 3 seasons with 45+ appearences (but i am sure nobody sane would argue Rashford is the superior talent to Messi). The same case is with Mbappe, "the chosen one". So far, Mbappe has been performing under "nothing to lose, everything to gain" mentality, almost always being a sidekick with very unique and useful skillset that his great teams knew how to take the advantage of. 2018/19 Mbappe hasnt gone past that stage. With Cavani and Neymar gone for the United match, he had an ideal opportunity to show he is ready to be labeled as one of the best in the world (imo),.. he underperformed demonstrating that he is not there yet with the big boys. I solely base my opinion on those two games. Talent for top 20 is not questionable, it was whether 2018/19 Mbappe had a character that it takes to LEAD his team to win or not. He apperently didnt have. Having that said, i think, with that experience of losing to United, he has grown and surely took his place amongst the best. He will be tested again this season like he was vs United, but this time i believe he will succeed. Why?.. he has the experience.
@PDG1978 This is maybe an article (especially the bold parts) and thread for you: https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/in...rthy-to-remember.2046116/page-2#post-38034778 Thoughts? (unlike e.g. tennis I'm not such an avid follower of this enterprise as you are)
Something to note about Messi. 2014 was probably his only "off" (for his standards) year in the last decade. Unfortunate that the WC with the most favourable circumstances to win it was exactly during that summer. In 2012 Portugal took Spain to penalties and Ronaldo had some decisive games up to that point. Just a bit more luck (which they got 4 years later) and a decent final performances... Overall you're right that this is a big factor, there is some trend going on. btw. some old example that came to mind of being well rested for the WC: Paolo Rossi played just 3 games in 1981/82
Ronaldo nazario 1996/97 and Eusebio 1961/62 are two similar type players who debunk this completely What did R9 prior to 1997 "experience" that Mbappe hasn't Champions league football? World cup? copa? He was on the bench in 94 so this was hardly an experience at least not in the true sense of the word Mbappe at 20 years scored at a historic rate in ligue 1 on par with zlatan ibrahimovic (his best ) and just Fontaine (the 50s) The quality of service or lack thereof is irrelevant here Ibrahimovic benefited from the same team edge and fontaine played in the era of crazy goal averages There is no reason to doubt he will not improve on his return next season and the season thereafter A 20 year old can be amongst the top 20 even top 10 players in the world Only if his talent and application of talent warrants it EDIT: Mbappe 18/19 hasn't had experience LMFAO He scored in a freaking world cup final at 19 years old Is there a bigger stage than that?
You are straw-maning me. I have never said that 20 year old can not be top 20 (keep in mind top 20 is a code for among the best. From year to year that can vary from top 6 to top 18 depending on the compaetition) I have never subscribed to the idea that R9 and Eusebio were top 20, nor otherwise. I can not speak for Eusebio cuze i am not familiar with his story, but R9 indeed did experience things Mbappe has not, ome of which is being a clear cut best player on the team and actually being successful in such environment something Mbappe has failed to replicate against United. I have never said "experience" means merely playing on the big stage. That has little to no effect on your ability to perform. Eder has experienced scoring a Euro winning goal. How much is he better player because of it? Experiencing the big stage football from the underdog mentality where you have nothing to lose is quite different experience to playing under pressure of performing and having responsibility to do so. When you play against inferior United side in R16. Neymar, Cavani are out and all of your teammates rely and expect from you to perform and lead them forward (because tactics and everything is build arlund your qualities), you bear a different kind of pressure. Pressure of responsibility, which he has not till that point. WC, Monaco were all sunshine and rainbows. Nobody expected anything from 18, 19 year old. Its the situation where if you dont perform, its okay, you are young, if you do perform, its phenomenal. No expectation, no responsibility, no pressure. Thats Mbappe's career summed up so far. Now, he is just entering the world of responsibility and he has to prove he can bear it before, at least I, would call him on pair with the best players in te world. I am not going to call a sidekick that performs in great teams build for his qualities, one of the best in the world. If he performed a bit better vs United than he did, we wouldnt be having this conversation. When you ask me if Mbappe is top 20 in the world? All i see is him underperforming vs United.
We are talking about fully fledged internationals First names on the team sheet and you're seriously going to mention eder There are always exceptions to the rule Mbappe has had a number of deep forays into the champions league where he has come unstuck against future champions and "lucky ole" (riding off the feel good factor he temporarily injected into the club) Mbappe has scored at a superior rate in 18/19 than edison cavani ever has Mbappe dismantled Argentina (with Messi who was in GOAT tier form in la liga) Mbappe has more champions league goals than Ronaldo nazario Mbappe scored in a world cup final He is 20 years old Many solid pros don't even have this on their whole career resume Ronaldo nazario 96/97 was unanimously the best on his team because he was competing against a past prime Stoichkov who came back after having flopped hard in serie A A before prime Luis figo And some players who were borderline world class as Enrique, guardiola etc 1997 was a very uncompetitive year even if Ronaldo nazario himself was outstanding Mbappe 18/19 was the best on his team(a super team with world class players in every position) Neymar had a case in the first half of the campaign but he couldn't remain fit hence the reason Mbappe at 20 years old received so many plaudits and accolades Seasons aren't made or defined by a single match He flopped against Manchester United so what? What did messi do vs roma in 2018 What did Cristiano do vs Liverpool 18 or atletico 16 (both times fully fit with no excuses) Romario 94 vs Italy and Milan Ronaldo nazario 98 vs France Ronaldinho 06 vs arsenal and France All failed in the biggest showdowns of the season did that define them? Once again you are holding Mbappe to standards you would literally not apply to anybody The hypocrisy of all of this can be summarised briefly below Eden hazard is a player you seemingly rate highly enough (top 10 in the world on his best days) Refer me to a single Champions league QF-final he took over Just one It doesn't exist!!! How is hazard propelled to such a lofty status based solely on league form but not Mbappe Explain this conundrum If you can
Recent final of Europa league vs Arsenal is the first one that comes into my mind.. how he did there? Thats literally difference between experience and being new to that world. Do i really need to list big games moments in which Hazard delivered when he was expected to deliver. At no point did i mentioned that it has to be uefa champions league. The reason why i brought two games vs United because that was an ideal opportunity for Mbappe to prove his class in the absence of Cavani and Nemyar. He could do it vs Liverpool in group stages if Neymar was absent, but he wasnt. As long as he plays along side Neymar, he is a sidekick and wont be able to showcase he has grown into a leader on the pitch. Another instance in which Mbappe failed to deliver, in the absence of Neymar and with all eyes on him, is 2018 home 2nd leg vs Real Madrid. But Real might be too big of a challenge so i refrained from mentioning it so far. Its not my fault that their is scarcity of games like ones vs United in Mbappes career. He hasnt yet deliver as a main man, which is the threshold. Is that really that odd from me to say? Let me just remind you of your hypocrisy. You absolutely denied any of Neymar team achievments in Barcelona, why? Because he was a sidekick there. Its okay when it comes to Mbappe. He single handedly won World Cup, single handedly won 2017 and 2019 french league, etc. I feel like you think i was expecting hattrick from Mbappe vs United or performance of that level. Let me say thats not true. I wasnt asking for much. I was simply expecting a mature performance. To see him comfortable on the pitch, taking advantage of psg superiority. (The examples youve given of Ronaldo and Messis failures are bad ones because they didnt have superiority on the pitch like PSG had over United. I still cant believe United actually won..) Btw, thanks for proving my argument further by bringing Hazard into discussion. I know you havent noticed but you literally just said that i am correct, that Mbappe doesnt have necessary experience to perform as a worlds best players because Hazard also struggled to perform on big stage in first few years and wasnt considered among the very best players. Thanks. Hazard has grown since and beat the threshold which Mbappe is yet to do. Cavani is a milestone to become one of the best in the world?
Europa league is a second tier competition and Arsenal 18/19 finished 5th place in the premier league Bearing in mind this a team that conceded like 50 goals just in the league a calamitous defensive record A performance against a team as Arsenal 18/19 will never be the barometer of greatness Eden hazard, like mbappe, like ibrahimovic have only been great in the context of league football Whether or not ligue 1 has the strength of depth of other top european leagues is up for discussion but mbappe laid waste to lyon last season scoring 4 goals (lyon beat Manchester City how many premier league teams were able to do that ?) The threshold is a Europa league final against arsenal 18/19? Remind me how many goals+assists+pre assists hazard has in the following matches World cup final World cup semifinals European championship final European championship semifinal Champions league final Champions league semifinal That is the ultimate threshold for a tier 1 big game player
I cant explain the concept to someone who doesnt want to llisten. Here is you rep. You won. I said everything i had to say about Mbappe
Wasn't this the year where he puked on the pitch? He looked liked he had health problems (diet?) rather than saving himself, but I might be mixing it up with another season.
I'll get back to you within the next week via PM re: this, but nice to see the positive interactions he had with Cruyff! I said to you via PM that I thought he was about to take his first pole position yesterday (only the final part of qualifying remained), and he did....just! Maybe there is some overlap between being in the 'best car' (even if it can be a bit variable in a season), and playing on the 'best team' (or one of the best) in football! In terms of maximising the output of individuals, and having the team success in terms of trophies for example.
No problem. It's worth noting that in AO 2007 Federer had to beat Tommy Robredo, Andy Roddick (although Fernando Gonzalez was in great form in that tournament) in Wimbledon 2017 he didn't had to face any of the top 5 players. Murray was eliminated and Djokovic retired in the QF due to a shoulder injury. There was little competition from Tomáš Berdych and Marin Čilić. Since 2007, Federer has won only 8 slams, while he also clinched his only French Open title against the-then world no.25 Robin Soderling, who prevented the Swiss from having to beat Nadal on clay (something which Djokovic has since managed.) Federer’s decline in terms of titles won coincides with the emergence of Nadal, Djokovic and, to a lesser extent, Andy Murray. In other words, his decline coincides with the emergence of one of the strongest eras tennis has ever seen. Djokovic has a 6-5 record against Federer in majors at hard court (the majority of his loses before 2010 when the Serb was an entirely different player than he is now). His run from 2011–19 in hard is a lot more impressive than Federer’s run from 2004–07, due in part that he was dominating a stronger golden generation of peak Nadal, peak Murray, peak Stan (and peak/ post-prime Federer) while Federer was dominating what we now call the weak generation (peak Safin, peak Roddick, post-prime Hewitt, peak Davydenko). In terms of completeness Djokovic is probably the best returner of all time, has the most impenetrable defence ever seen on a court, he's probably the fastest player ever recorded as well. Federer is the best quick-strike player of the Modern Era (post 2000), and grass increases the potency of those quick strikes. What he gains over the other two, to afford him this aggressive mindset in grass, a serve that is easily one of the best in modern era. When he finds a rhythm on that serve, it’s very hard to break him. After that serve comes the volleys and slices, always looking for awkward spots on the court to unsettle the opponent. His backhand slice is wicked on the low-bouncing grass, but the forehand and the serve deal the most damage. Although I am unsure how would he fare against prime Sampras at Wimbledon. Who's serve and attack game was even better. For some reason Novak just isn't loved. It’s hard to imagine that a man who came through the longest Wimbledon final in history, becoming the first man to save championship points and win the title, is not appreciated
Neither could i say it clearly immidiately after united games. It took some personal experiences to finally click. Then i could articulate my feelings about him. It actually openned the whole new doors that i have not seen so far. It made me realize how much experiences/ his history, defines a player. You can not look at players skills in isolation of who he is based on his experience. The way someone will perform has a lot to do with who they are in that moment. Its not purely about what they can do in theory, but how they will react to the match moment by moment. Its a whole new variable that i didnt think of before
Dont get me wrong. Its not only about positive experience it works the other way around. For example, I firmly believe that Barcelonas players wouldnt have performed the way they did in 2nd leg of the game vs liver it werent for experience of year before. You can not look at players abilities as a footballer in isolation of who they are. It makes a lot of sense
That's correct. Messi was coming off possibly his worst season before WC14. He was regularly throwing up before games and would even have a black eye on more than one occasion. He did admit a while later that it was his diet. In addition he was also going through the hamstring problem that started the season prior
Exclusive: Raheem Sterling contemplating offer to be one of the first footballers to sign a personal endorsement to wear Air Jordan football boots, in what could be one of the most lucrative boot deals in history | @SamWallaceTelhttps://t.co/UIHjpAbKjD— Telegraph Football (@TeleFootball) August 12, 2019 Podium finisher for the future. The huge british market and jingoism... 100 million for a boot deal...
Big news from CorSport, Cristiano Ronaldo seems to be the favorite to win the Ballon d'Or 2019 on 2nd December - The delegation of France Football have been seen in Turin in recent days, Recording an interview with CR7 that will be uploaded after the Ceremony! pic.twitter.com/Ap7imxgLDh— Forza Juventus (@ForzaJuveEN) October 28, 2019 Would be an even worse robbery than 2013. If he gets it, then surely FF is among those getting paid by Jorge Mendes?
1) Votes are not cast yet 2) The man in your avatar is a master robber. Handballing his way to two World Cup finals, a UEFA Cup and a scudetto. All but one of the sparse trophies he won rely on robbing. 3) Messi has the best chance to win thanks to his quality, his playing position, and orchestrated latin bloc voting. The latin vote also gave him the FIFA award, as opposed to the split vote of the other continents. If anything, it is the politically shielded hgh midget with an orchestrated agenda while Ronaldo, Mendes and Perez has been less effective to raly blocs behind him.
Of course you repeat that again as Barca supporter. What is your point though? Ronaldo will therefore get it? He won't, and if anything orchestrated bloc voting has helped his rival in the past, not Ronaldo. https://www.sport1.de/fussball/2019/09/weltfussballer-lionel-messi-wie-die-karibik-ihm-zum-sieg-half https://fussball.news/artikel/weltfussballer-des-jahres-ex-trainer-martino-kritisiert-messi-wahl/
You seem to be triggered and disappointed that your fellow countryman is probably not winning it. Just a friendly reminder that Messi was indeed better. My statements have not changed. Van Dijk the uefa best, Messi fifa and ballon d'Or.