So essentially the data that was presented is obsolete(predictably) Danko definitely thought that he'd found evidence purporting to Messi being some unbeatable performer at international level PS Goals against Kazakhstan/Azerbaijan etc in competitive matches definitely do matter and in fact much more than any friendly fixture against any opponent If not we can minus 4 goals vs north Korea from Eusebio 66 (5 goals in a high scoring world cup era isn't special) From Maradona Minus 1 hand ball vs England And 3 assists vs north Korea 4 goals+ 2 assist doesn't look so GOAT anymore Pele hat trick vs Wales 1958 (without John Charles) was probably if not definitely inferior to a hat trick vs Panama/Azerbaijan/bolivia etc today in a random friendly
Let's go over the traditional elite teams then. Brazil: Messi has 4 goals and 0 wide assists in 8 games, three goals were however against the de facto under-23 team (yes it had some good players in, but the defenders were clearly not). The other goal came in a friendly as well, no goal or assist in 5 competitive games. Ronaldo has 0 goals and 0 assists in three. Germany: Messi has 1 goal and 0 wide assists in 4 games, the goal coming in a friendly. Ronaldo has 0 goals and 1 assist in 4 games (assist in euro 2008). Italy: Messi never played against them (Argentina won twice without him though, both away from home). Ronaldo 0 goals and 0 assists in two. Spain: Messi two goals in three (one penalty). Ronaldo three goals and 1 assist in five (one penalty too). Admittedly, Nani ruined once a wonder goal (touching while offside). England: Messi never played against them (last encounter was 2005). Ronaldo 0 goals and 0 assists in 3 games. France: Messi one goal and two assists in two games (Argentina won without him too). Ronaldo 0 goals and 0 assists in four games. Some have said those two assists by Messi were a bit lucky/fortunate/deflected (first assist) and with France already through to the next round (second assist), but still better than Ronaldo here. Head-to-head: Messi has a goal and an assist in two games (penalty). Ronaldo 1 goal and 0 assists in those two. One win each. I think both become more or less 'normal' world class players when they play for their national team. They are sometimes fortunate in their schedule and amount of opportunities they have, but their delivery against top class sides isn't markedly better as other world class players (not even top of the pack stuff). Nor are they super influential in lifting their team to great heights (like Zidane did, just making his national team playing a better game, above expectations; or Cruijff indeed helping to lift a national team from virtually nothing to great qualitative heights and sophisticated standards; and I like Mbappe in the sense of his supporting movement for his national team). One can say Ronaldo has an edge in the sense of having performances like Spain, Netherlands in big tournaments (Messi not really, Uruguay 2011 comes the closest imho) but Messi is a bit more consistent by virtue of his attributes. Colombia, Uruguay are not traditional elite sides (they're second tier teams), with all due respect for the quality of some of their players (while having weak links on other places).
Agreed with this except the conclusion Ronaldo and Messi have between them 150 ~ goals for their countries If they were only goalscorers providing nothing else that would be enough to suggest they were above "normal" world class international performers Against the top teams their production is markedly less than others (pele,puskas, gerd muller) Still though in the case of CR he didn't play in a all star NT during his prime we know as a fact what Ronaldo can produce with a all star cast His gpg against getafe is the same as it is against bayern Munich/juventus which says it all Not sure how Zidane is a marked improvement at international level (maybe 5-10 games at international level out of 700 games in his career) Zidane I think raised the mentality of his team(visibly and according to the testimony of his own teammates) His production/output however outside of a handful of games wasn't even in the same ball park as Ronaldo and Messi
In this generation of football players, i'd say Luis Suarez is the only elite footballer who could perform at the same elite level no matter which team you place him on. As he's shown with Ajax, Liverpool, Barca, and Uruguay.
Define elite because his record vs periodic top 10 teams in England was demonstrably inferior compared to Henry,Ronaldo(or even aguero) His Champions league record is elite?
But those 5-10 games are those that matter, aren't they ? At some point you expect world class players to be clutch. He was clearly an improvement in knock-out games and/or vs elite teams, much more than Messi and Ronaldo. Anyway, for what's worth, Zidane scored or set up about 70 goals in his international carreer (108 caps)... he was actually good for a bit longer than 5-10 games...
You are misrepresenting my point Zidanes greatness is based on them 5-10 games(Brazil twice, Portugal once, including England 04 is a push but he was clutch) Those 70 goals+assists suggest he was a very consistent performer His highs at international level were greater than either Messi or Ronaldo But they have maintained a level of consistency over such a long period at international level (including qualifiers which are competitive and matter)that they have comfortably surpassed Zidane at international level ZIDANE has 70 goals+assists as AM Ronaldo has 130 goals+ assists for Portugal as winger 03-10 and forward 11-19 Without those 5-10 matches of Zidane this conversation wouldn't even exist
Zidane also provided more against class opposition beyond those 5 matches, and he didn't have more opportunities to do so. Excluding the 2002 World Cup where he was injured, he had 'only' five shots for glory. Zidane was actually more productive as a national team player than club player, both against the top teams (22 games) and in general. The observation is not that Zidane is a greater player, it is that those other two become 'normal' world class players when playing for their national team. Farming in qualifiers and friendlies, and some favorable routes can't hide it.
Sure... But those 5-10 games are all that matter, at the end of the day. I'm not sure you can easily compare a midfielder to a forward, btw. Playing closer to the goal will make you increase your stats. Thierry Henry also has better stats than Zidane. Was he better, more influential, or whatever you call it, than ZZ ? Hell, no way.
Yeah...and this is why a player as Roger Milla who played in obscure leagues for most of his career can be hyped as top 100 all time for 3-5 games in front of a worldwide audience The whole picture matters not only part of it I seem to misunderstand your point Zidane is definitely a greater world cup performer than Cristiano Ronaldo (and "groupstage great" Messi) This is where the comparison ends Ronaldos EURO championship career wipes the floor with Zidane The fact he has played so many games goes in his credit (in the same way Lothar matthaus was "credited" for making the most WC appearances) CRs performance vs Holland 12 and Hungary 16 are of a higher calibre than any euro performance of Zidane
While I generally agree with the above, I disagree with a number of things. Spain 2014 - 2018: 1 - 5 versus Netherlands / World Cup 2014. 0 - 2 versus Chile / World Cup 2014. 1 - 2 versus Croatia / Euro 2016. 0 - 2 versus Italy / Euro 2016. 3 - 3 versus Portugal / World Cup 2018. 5 - 14 aggregate defeat for Spain. Uruguay 2014 - 2018: 2 - 1 versus England / World Cup 2014. 1 - 0 versus Italy / World Cup 2014. 0 - 1 versus Argentina / Copa America 2015. 0 - 1 versus Chile / Copa America 2015. 2 - 1 versus Portugal / World Cup 2018. 0 - 2 versus France / World Cup 2018. 5 - 6 aggregate defeat for Uruguay. Chile 2014 - 2018: 2 - 0 versus Spain / World Cup 2014. 0 - 2 versus Netherlands / World Cup 2014. 1 - 1 versus Brazil / World Cup 2014. 1 - 0 versus Uruguay / Copa America 2015. 0 - 0 versus Argentina / Copa America 2015. 1 - 2 versus Argentina / Copa America Centenario 2016. 2 - 0 versus Colombia / Copa America Centenario 2016. 0 - 0 versus Argentina / Copa America Centenario 2016. 7 - 5 aggregate win for Chile. Colombia 2014 - 2018: 2 - 0 versus Uruguay / World Cup 2014. 1 - 2 versus Brazil / World Cup 2014. 1 - 0 versus Brazil / Copa America 2015. 0 - 0 versus Argentina / Copa America 2015. 0 - 2 versus Chile / Copa America Centenario 2016. 1 - 1 versus England / World Cup 2018 *James Rodriguez did not played. 5 - 5 aggregate draw for Colombia. Croatia 2014 - 2018: 1 - 3 versus Brazil / World Cup 2014. 2 - 1 versus Spain / Euro 2016. 0 - 1 versus Portugal / Euro 2016. 3 - 0 versus Argentina / World Cup 2018 *Argentina 2018 is not top tier. 2 - 1 versus England / World Cup 2018. 2 - 4 versus France / World Cup 2018. 10 - 10 aggregate draw for Croatia. If national sides with disastrous results such as Spain 2014 - 2018... are for whatever reasons considered elite national teams, then I think it becomes necessary to re-evaluate how good Chile was, Uruguay was, Colombia was, etc. With all of the above in mind: Uruguay is an elite side defensively, which is, I'd argue, what actually matters if the argument is about how Messi or Ronaldo perform against difficult sides; which Uruguay definitely is defensively... Uruguay 2018 did an infinitely better role defending Ronaldo out of the game, than Spain 2018 did; Spain 2018 was frankly a sorry side defensively... De Gea gifted Ronaldo a goal (which by all means should've been a routine block for the GK, given the fact that Ronaldo hit it straight at the GK), Gerard Pique gifted a stupid free kick (which could've been easily avoided), and Nacho was played for a fool by Ronaldo's dive (which also could've been easily avoided if the VAR had offered multiple camera angles, and if Nacho had been a lot less foolish with his 1 v 1 defending). When you look at Ronaldo's performance as a whole, you get a gifted 2-1 goal (blunder by De Gea), a gifted free kick for the 3-3 goal (the free kick itself was excellent, but Gerard Pique's foul was as stupid a deliberate foul as you will ever see at this level, especially given the fact that it was minute 88), and a penalty kick for the 1-0 goal. Ronaldo's performance versus Spain 2018 would be virtually impossible against a national side that can actually defend; in fact I'd argue that World Cup 2018 perfectly demonstrates said principle... Ronaldo's best performance by far was versus the defensively mediocre Spain, ergo Ronaldo was nowhere near as great against any of his other "lesser tier" opponents; because Ronaldo plays against defenders, because Ronaldo plays against the defensive organization and application, not necessarily against the quality of the team/opponent as a whole (as the overall sum of its parts, that is). In a nutshell: 1. Uruguay 2011 - 2018 is a much better top tier measure than Spain 2014 - 2018; Spain cannot attack nor defend; at least Uruguay is top tier on the defensive end. 2. Spain 2014 - 2018 has a disastrous record against top tier national teams. Why this continues to be ignored is beyond me. 3. Colombia 2014 - 2018 is easily comparable to almost any European national team, with the exception of perhaps just Germany and/or France; Spain, Portugal, Croatia, Belgium, and so on, are not markedly better than Colombia (especially when James Rodriguez is fully fit and also not lacking match fitness). 4. Argentina 2016 - 2019 is not a top tier side, and as such it becomes necessary to re-evaluate how national sides such as Uruguay or Colombia are measured in relative terms. 5. In general I agree, Messi and Ronaldo simply are incapable of flexing their legendary powers when the going gets tough, against national teams that can actually defend... On the other hand, this might be a clash between traditional greatness vs. tactical evolution... I mean, no player, no matter how great he is, appears to be capable of replicating his best form against tactically organized top tier national sides. It might just be that the era of Maradona, Pele, Cruyff, Platini, and so on, is over for good... probably because tactics have been perfected to the point that it is now virtually impossible for a single individual to elevate a national side; that is, a team that said player barely practices with at a competitive level, besides the handful of World Cup games, Euro games, or Copa America games. Traditional greatness is no longer great enough, in and of itself, to turn the tide against the ever improving tactical organization brought about by the Pep Guardiolas of football. This is evidence of a "weak era" according to many nostalgic fans, but I think it is far more likely that the tactics are simply a wall that traditional greatness cannot climb.
@carlito86 You completely discredited yourself when you said Messi and Ronaldo passed Zidane in terms of international career. Not even close... As for Messi being individually better than Ronaldo for his national team, it's a fact. If we consider assists and add them to @PuckVanHeel post, it's a rout in terms of end product against good teams. And once again looking at KO stage performances at the WC/Copa, it's very one-sided. Messi has 4 goals and 12 assists in 18 KO stage matches, 6x MOTM Ronaldo has 3 goals and 2 assists in 16 KO stage matches, 2x MOTM
You leave out some results like Spain their qualifying matches against Italy for the 2018 World Cup. This was effectively for direct qualification while the other had to play a play-off against an unpredictable Sweden side (that also made life hard for France, the later world champion). Spain had in each year between 2015 and 2019 a markedly higher Elo rating than both Colombia and Uruguay. It never came closer than 49 points, ahead of Colombia, with a gap of 100+ points no exception. In the FIFA ranking Spain had in all but one year a higher ranking (Uruguay was ahead in 2018, Colombia in 2015). That FIFA ranking might be a semi-politicized thing, but that's precisely the point about who falls in the mainstream. I agree Spanish football isn't famous for their uncompromising, wear-and-tear defenses and both Ronaldo and Messi have a good return against them. Might have a look later at how they did against Uruguay, Colombia, Chile and Croatia.
Messi and Ronaldo both have 0 KO goals in the world cup (Messi with one assist vs Switzerland) For you a "European" to draw an equivalence between the copa America and the European championship shows the level of the absurdity that you are willing to demean yourself too in "defence" of Messi You can only compare like for like. unsurprisingly you cannot comprehend this hence the reason on this very page you compared competitive goals with friendly goals Of course danko will never apply this consistently across the board because Messi would need to retire at 50 years old to catch up to Peles 1200~ goals
Platini arrested in France, by the French justice system. Platini arrested over alleged corruption in awarding the 2022 World Cup. He and 13 others voted for Qatar. Wonder why? pic.twitter.com/kzYCiyc4wK— Nick Harris (@sportingintel) June 18, 2019
- You are criticising Mbappe's performance in big games this season (he has performed against Lyon, Netherlands, Marseille and underperformed but still scored and assisted against Liverpool and United), Salah for example has a stunning goal against Chelsea, one goal against Napoli, and a rather soft penalty against Spurs (in that time he has faced Man City x2, Chelsea x2, Spurs x3, Man United x2, Arsenal x2, PSG x2, Napoli x2, Bayern x2 and Barcelona x2). - Of course Mbappe should get credit for being top scorer in Ligue 1. IMO Ligue 1 isn't that much worse than Serie A and the Bundesliga. Juve got rid of Allegri after he won the league, and Bayern considered getting rid of Kovac who won the domestic double simply because he didn't make it look as easy as everyone knows it is. The gap between PSG, Juve, Bayern and the rest is quite similar. If anything, PSG at least had their streak of title wins broken, by a Monaco (with Mbappe). Bayern have won 7 in a row, and couldn't believe that a team managed to sort of run them close, to the point they have decided to spend big (uncharacteristically) and considered changing their coach. Juventus have won their 8th in a row, and when Roma or Napoli run them close they signed their key players. I'd say Ligue 1 is equivalent to Bundesliga and both are just a little bit below Serie A. - I don't know where Spurs would finish in Ligue 1, but Lyon and Monaco have shown against City in recent times that they can be a handful in one off matches, and I don't see that Spurs of 2018/19 was built for a gruelling season, so yes I wouldn't be surprised to see them some 20+ points off PSG at the end. PSG finished ahead of Liverpool in their group too. In the last 3-4 years I see more arguments in favour of Ligue 1 than the Bundesliga. - It's not excuses for Mbappe, just digging deeper. PSG did indeed lose to United, but it shows how a penalty (a soft one too) is the difference between "Mbappe guides PSG to the QF without Neymar or Cavani" to "Mbappe flopped against a team outside the PL top 4" - PSG have had however many years to get close to winning the CL, but Mbappe =/= PSG though, in fact he did get to the semifinals with Monaco and even played quite well despite the exit to Juve. - I didn't know that Messi gets criticised for Barca's exits against Atletico and Chelsea or even Liverpool and Roma recently. It would be simplistic. - France WC 2018, played worse than Portugal E2016? One team won 6 of its 7 matches in normal time, the other won one of its 7 matches in normal. I've never heard anyone claim this before, but it's really absurd man. - Mbappe was one of France's best players at the WC, at worst the 3rd best. - Mbappe himself said at the end of the season he wants more responsibility, he is being compared "like the big boys" and in my opinion and a few others he stacks up well, in yours and a few others he's not among the best. Which is fair enough.
They want to coincide it with Euro hence the Copa America next year. https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football/3138883/copa-america-euro-2020-fifa/ He was by far the best player in the last 2 Copa. Was named in the Team of the tournament in both occasions. Although his great performances came against the likes of Paraguay, Panama, Venezuela, USA. Having said that his chances of winning anything with NT are slim. I don't think he'll ever come close to the greatness Maradona achieved with Albiceleste
I posted stats for KO stages at the World Cup and Copa combined. You're wrong. Messi has 0 goals and 4 assists in 8 matches in the KO stages of the World Cup. Of the four assists, two came against France (2018), one against Switzerland (2014), and one against Mexico (2010). Ronaldo on the other hand has 0 goals and 0 assists in 6 matches in the KO stages of the World Cup. While both have no goals, Messi has much better end product. It's not absurd to compare Euro and Copa as being equal. The average team in the Copa America is probably about as good as the average team in the Euro even if the best team in the world is from Europe. Teams like Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, Colombia and Chile would all have more than a fair shot to win the Euro if they participated in it over the last decade. All five of those teams are better than Wales, Hungary or even Poland by some distance. When comparing international goals, most people include friendly matches. For clubs, friendlies are excluded. And if you want to talk about comparing like for like... You can't compare goals scored in UEFA qualifiers largely against the likes of Andorra and Kazakhstan to the goals scored in CONMEBOL qualifiers against much better sides on average. At the end of the day, it's best to post all data and let every person make their own conclusion. My conclusion from looking at their numbers is that Messi is the more productive player in big tournaments and also the more productive player against bigger teams. Goal and assist data supports my claim. Messi winning two Golden Ball awards and Ronaldo winning zero also supports my claim of Messi being the better individual performer. Team results are another matter.
Are you seriously comparing Zidane to Milla ? The whole picture doesn't say otherwise : Zidane had a better international carreer that relatively underachieving Ronaldo and Messi. That's hardly debattable. What Messi and Ronaldo have over him is their longevity, that's all. Zidane's EC2000 matches everything Ronaldo has to offer at the international level.
Zidane is miles ahead of both Messi and Ronaldo in terms of international career. The fact that @carlito86 even entertains the argument baffles me. I'm as big a Barca fan as any but you've got to call a spade a spade.
Got to say that one was 2 meters offside But the advantage still stands of course. 1 is always better than 0. Deflected, lucky or not.
Zidane is "miles" a better world cup KO stage performer That's it He isn't objectively better at world cup group stage matches World cup qualifiers(definitely not) European championship qualifiers (definitely not) Even if Zidane had one outstanding European championship proper it is still only one Ronaldo was team of the tournament 3 times(first time in 04 at 19 years old) who/where was Zidane at 19 years old? Sorry I don't suffer from this degenerate form of madness where 1 or few games gets magnified tenfold Zidanes great WC KO stage performance consists of 3-5 matches Brazil 1998(outstanding) Spain 2006 (good without being outstanding) Brazil 2006(outstanding) Portugal 2006 (CR was better then him) Italy 2006 (fairly good with a great panenka against buffon in his prime) 2 legitimately great world cup KO stage performances is still only 2 (not 10,20,100 etc) Ronaldo has almost 90 goals+ 40 assists for his country A freaking legendary career Nobody is miles better than him at international level @babaorum I'm not comparing Milla and Zidane in the way you portray Zidane (a generational talent)was over hyped as top 20 all time because of 3-4 matches Without Millas 6 world cup goals he wouldn't even make top 1000 all time How the heck does Milla with a club career in complete obscurity even get mentioned anywhere near Samuel etoo? You can harp on about 3 world cup performances all you like Outside of these nothing Zidane ever did was even remotely comparable to Cristiano Ronaldo Not even remotely
Come on mate If You look at CR's or Messi's NT career, do You see a GOAT candidate? No. None of them had played great WC/Euro/Copa. They win nothing ( Cristiano didn't play in 2016 final ). Zero goals in WC knock-outs. They are NT top scorers, because they have played many more games than Eusebio and Batistuta . Thats all. CR has more g+a than Pele but who has better NT career? R9 has better NT career than this two combined . It's not even close
My point really : Ronaldo has longevity. But which player would you pick between the two to actually win a KO game or still more a tournament ? That's the only legitimate question to ask really. And the answer is quite obvious isn't it ? Zidane was way better in KO games and in a general way vs elite teams. It's a no contest here. Also, limiting Zidane's NT carreer to such a limited panel of games as you did is ridiculous... For the record, in the 49 competition games he played (WC, EC and qualifiers games), Zidane either scored or set up 40 goals. See it how you want, but it shows a certain level of consistency that is not limited to a couple of games...
I would pick Zidane for the last 3-4 games of a 7 game tournament that happens once every 4 years. I would pick c.Ronaldo for every champions league fixture (groupstage or knockout)every league fixture,every Cup fixture, every league cup fixture,every friendly etc