On January 30th there is a meeting of the 36 pro clubs in Frankfurt. Main topic is the TV market. Because of the financial needs new solutions will be discussed. Kicker did a research on possible solutions among the GMs and found several aspects: Expansion to 20 teams: five GMs are speaking for it. England, France and Spain have this size, Germany had it one season after the reunion. Hope: four games more means more attendance income (the biggest reliable source) and they hope on more TV income because of that. Top clubs say no: “Quality brings more than quantity”, say Bayern and Leverkusen. 1860, Nürnberg (“if it remains with three relegating teams”), Hannover (“see the problem for top teams, but for the small ones it would be a good thing”), Rostock and Stuttgart (“if the number of national games will be reduced in this extent”) demand this solution. Reintroduction of relegation games: ten GMs demand that the 16th of Bundesliga has to play against the 3rd of 2.Bundesliga (as from 1982 until 1991). One of Bayer’s managers, Wolfgang Holzhäuser even prefers the mode that just the last ranked of Bundesliga demotes and the top ranked of 2.Bundesliga promotes directly, while the other four play a relegation round – a version that is also preferred by Mönchengladbach. The 16th vs 3rd relegation is wanted by Schalke, Hannover, Bielefeld, Wolfsburg and Cottbus. Stuttgart even think about a six team relegation round. Playoffs: Holzhäuser also came up with the idea to have a playoff round with the top four of the ranking. Indoor Masters: four want it without conditions, seven if the winter break lasts until February and Leverkusen wants it if the top teams have to join the competition later than the others. Combined Training Camp of all teams: Bayern, 1860, Rostock and Nürnberg think the idea is worth discussing, the rest rejects it. When kicker sent the questionnaires to the teams, Dortmund’s GM Meier was shocked and complained about misleading information if topics are raised in the public, which are not confirmed by DFL. He immediately called Bayern and Leverkusen (which once again shows who’s got the real power in the business) to stop this questionnaire, but they didn’t react to his fears – and so Dortmund is the only club that didn’t answer the questions. === My thoughts: Expansion is okay. 20 teams are not too much. As I said in another thread. If there are no so called English weeks (weekend – weekday – weekend rhythm), then most teams schedule friendlies in this time. There’s absolutely no reason why this can’t be done. Relegation games: Don’t know, I prefer clear solutions. Either you are on a relegating rank or you are not. It would be quite bad to have a bad (considering number of points in relation to the last season) Bundesliga 16th as Freiburg and a good 2.Bundesliga third as Bochum last year, and Freiburg stays in just because of further coincidences like better nerves, wrong referee decision, playing style of exactly this team is fitting to them… In other words: a team with a bad number of points as Freiburg last year does not deserve a further chance. Also, the debate is about getting further money – this measure just helps the involved teams, no good idea. Playoffs: I don’t like the idea of wrong adapting another systems mode. We got the European system with League + Cup and the American system with League + Playoffs, everything else is just a joke. If I’m honest I consider all mixtures to be a bad joke, regardless whether it is German DEL (hockey), BBL (basketball) or MLS – and I’m saying that although my favourite hockey team is in the final. In the special Bundesliga case you could think about dropping DFB-Pokal – the meaning is just living by the tradition of the cup, the sportive meaning is not existing before the semifinals. But the top 4 version really makes me angry – either you play top 8 or top 16 (with 17 and 18 relegating; or 20 teams and the last four are having playdowns), but a top 4 round would just increase the money for the top teams who really got more than enough money compared with all others; exactly the wrong ones would profit from this rule. This won’t be realised anyway – when do you want to play the games in a year with just 52 weeks? For playoffs you need to switch the format of the game into a mode with net playing time and unlimited substitutions to give top players the chance to rest. Indoor Masters: I don’t need it. Let the ones play who want to play and that’s it. Unterhaching and Fürth were the last Indoor Champions, this already shows the passion of the Bundesliga clubs. Combined Training Camp: is nonsense. What do you want with that? Already today you have lots of clubs driving to the same places and having short tournaments there. Switch in to DSF and Eurosport and you’ll have a huge number of friendlies, which all are boring as hell (and I still could kill the responsible person, who preferred covering Reutlingen vs Bayern and Hertha vs Trabzonspor instead of showing a regular season hockey game, which was announced to be aired). My solution: very easy – stop the crap dividing of the TV income. It’s a league with 18 teams, so divide the money equally among them. Currently the teams are paid according to the ranking to guarantee that the top teams will always get the most; to avoid that a bad season brings you down they ruled that the last five years are deciding. Hoeneß and Meier would probably kill me if they read that, but there is absolutely no justification for the existing rule. You could argue that in a decentralised system Bayern and Dortmund would get the most by far, but as long as they determined the league to be responsible, the league also should care for fair competition – something they fail to reach since ten years at least. The top teams are already rewarded with the big income of the international competition, there is absolutely no reason why they should be rewarded twice.
You hit the nail on the head with your last suggestion. The NFL, maybe the only league in the world without financial troubles, divides their enormous TV package evenly between their teams. This allows Green Bay, population 100K to compete with NY teams. Now the thing that makes this work is a salary cap. If TV money is the only change, Bayern is only whining because they might have to work harder for their monopoly.
20 teams: 18 is the right number; don't dilute the product, like MLB or NBA. Relegation playoffs: not opposed in principle (although I think in order to be attractive it needs to be something broader than #3 v. #16). Playoffs: it's a question of sporting culture, and while such an idea is almost mandatory in US sports, I don't see it catching on in Europe. Again, don't dilute the product (in this case, the regular season). TV Money: splitting it evely a'la the NFL is a fine idea, but the Dallas Cowboys can't bolt the NFL; there is the distinct possibility that Bayern/Dortmund could jump to a European league if sufficiently provoked.
I don't think that 18 or 20 makes a big difference. Less than 18 is a joke and I wouldn't complain a lot to keep it. Just 20 is a good and easy possibility to give the clubs more income. Regarding playoffs I got to say that it's played in lots kinds of sports also in Europe. That's nothing uncommon, but you got to keep it NFL-like in Best of 1 mode. And for fair competition this almost requires possibilities for video proof. As I said, I would like it if 8 or 16 teams are involved, but I don't see that this will happen in the near or even mid-term future. I also don't feel threatened by Bayern or Dortmund. DFL got to care for the whole pro leagues and not for just two teams. The main competition is the national league, and it's not their task to provide Bayern and Dortmund with a good chance to win an European title - especially not if it goes hand in hand with a growing gap to the rest of the league (let's face it: anyone who's winning the title except Dortmund or Bayern, has achieved almost a big sensation). Bayern and Dortmund can talk a lot about an Euro-League, but they can't get rid off their existing contracts. And an Euro-League requires time and many more teams - neither do I see latter thing at the moment, nor do I think that this can be a short-termed decision.
The NFL is showing that revenue sharing, combined with a strict salary cap, is the only way to go for any kind of a professional sports league. It keeps even compititon. I allows teams like Green Bay to win the Super Bowl (otherwise it wouldbe New York or SF or Dallas every year). A similar thing would happen in the Bundesliga (or any leauge). Teams like Rostock, Nurnburg, Hannover, etc would actually have a chance to win something. Some people consider this communinism/socialism , if not anti-capitialistic or anti-competition. However, it works. The NFL has never been healthier or more profitable. It generates more income for all teams because competition remains for all teams and more fans remain interested for the entire season. The teams from the biggest cities benefit more because their teams have to compete on an even keel and their games have more meaning. The teams from the smaller cities benefit because they can actually compete. Everybody wins. It goes along with the following concept. The quality of the group is greater than the sum of it's individual parts. In other words, a single ant is no threat, but a colony of ants working together is very formidable indeed.
Usually I reject any communist or socialist idea, but I got to agree with you. With NFL (or USA in general) it is a different situation though, as the different leagues are competing against another with the known top leagues being the market leaders. In Europe all teams compete against another as there is just one league system - so, all competition that can take place is the one between the teams. But also in the market economy there are limits if the free competition is endangered, which might justify a fairer treatment. And after all we're in sports and not in politics.
". The NFL has never been healthier or more profitable. It generates more income for all teams because competition remains for all teams and more fans remain interested for the entire season. The teams from the biggest cities benefit more because their teams have to compete on an even keel and their games have more meaning. " im sorry but this wouldnt work for bundesliga or any other league. This sport is built on DYNASTIES (real madrid, bayern) "big teams" it works in the u.s because the u.s has a huge population what the sport needs are a) transfer deadlines (now implemented, Thank God) b) salary cap for each league
I honestly can't see the salary cap being implemented in the Bundesliga. However, I think its something worth looking at, especially when it comes to dividing the TV deals. I think that's exactly what they should do. This still gives a tremendous advantage to the top teams with larger stadiums and European competition. But it would be a huge step toward making it more even for the rest of the teams and I think that parity is always a positive for the league as a whole. I think you'd see the difference on the field.
20 or 22 is the right mode. Ok, Sepp Blatter is again this, but who is Sepp? The BuLi must have 20 or better 22 Clubs inside. Cause it's the mighty's league (measured at attendance) I Think 22 are ok.
I guess I've stated this in another thread already: 18 teams are ok. Increasing to 20 wouldn't be a huge step but that would be the same with further increasing from 20 to 22 and then from 22 to 24. -> 18 is ok. Let it be a premium product. But imo the 2.Bundesliga could easily be increased to 20 or 24 teams as those clubs have no European duty, no league cup (only if a 2nd league club wins the DFB Cup) and normally not so many national players and fewer DFB Cup games. That would boost their gate revenues (ok, I see that would also be a point in 1. Bundesliga), maybe increase TV revenues but it would also create more depth in German professional footbal. In fact I think we could have 3 professional leagues: 1.Bundesliga: 1 x 18 teams 2.Bundesliga: 1 x 24 teams 3.Bundesliga: 1 x 24 teams (no Amateur clubs! -> own youth tournament) Regionalligen: 4 x ?? teams The Amateur clubs need to be removed as the have next to no fans (average of about 300-400 at home matches and almost no away support). "Traditionsvereine" would have a greater chance to participate in professional football and thus keep the leagues attractive.
There is a reason as friendlies and league matches are not the same. In friendlies you can rest exhausted players and even play with 95% afford. In league matches you have to go for it. So definitely not the same. Personally I could live with such a solution. For the big clubs it is not that much money they would miss (compared to their other revenues) and for the small clubs it would boost their spending power. There is still a small contra (I could live with): It keeps the competition alive when TV revenues are divided by leagues positions. Imagine 2 clubs out of relegation and UI-Cup spots play each other on the 34th match day. Even when there is no chance of being relegated or joining the UI-Cup they still battle for league positions to get a bigger piece of the TV revenue cake. But as already said I could live with that.
I am definitely in favour of increasing the number of teams in the 1. and 2. Bundesliga (Hey, everything that increases Braunschweig's promotion chances is good news for me ). I don't see this lowering the quality of the competition too (there are enough teams in the second division who could build up a decent team). And of course everyone should get equal TV money (well, me supporting something somehow socialist sounding isn't very surprising at all). Play-off ? relegation ? Never liked them, don't make any sense, inmho. I am quite sure many pepole would really like to give up those "dynasties" if in exchange they would get a league where Bayern doesn't win 75 % of the titles. I sure as hell would.
So Germany only has 36 professional clubs ? That number seems kinda low to me. Its odd than France has more pro clubs than Germany.
Officialy only the 1st and 2nd Division (36 teams each) are professional, but in fact both Regionalliga groups (18 teams each) are profesional leagues too. It's more of a legal reason that they are still refered too as amateur leagues (at least this is my guess).
As the time we had a 20 league, Bayern wins a lot. Yes they win. V s what? Oh I`ve a wrong table in history. I wish a table with Brunswick, Wuppertal, Offenbach and Saarbrücken or so. What a tradition. Well Schalke Bayer and Bochum and so. not missing this other westf. Clups too Don't miss the top ones, but the lower ones I like too. The Question from a lot of people is what means Twdeo. Is for D.... the f.... BVB The War Drags Ever On
England, Spain, Italy and France all will have 20 team first divisions next year you guys are gonna look weird being the only big league still at 18 teams especially since you have a lot of big cities with clubs below division 1. Why not give them 2 more oppertunities to move up.
BuLi is predistionated to get 22 clubs, cause only in the North Rhine and the Westfalian Area are more Clubs that in rest of the Rep..... Dortmund has an att. of more than 77,000 average, Schalke more than 61,000 - always selled out - Leverkusen, Bochum, Gladbach, Cologne, Wuppertal and RW Essen are growing. Don`t forget RW Oberhausen and Duisburg and Wattenscheid. 22 Club league is ok. ******** those in the lower att. areas.
Next to Frankfurt and Dresden they had the worst hool scene years ago (Frankfurt changed gottseidank ;-) )
Couple of questions: What is the average attendance in the 2nd Bundesliga? League size: 20 if not to just stuff it down Blatter's big giant yapper. Heck 50 would be fine for that - but seriously 20 is a great number. Tv money: Split it equally, that's the only way to do it. Sorry Bayern, suck on the word equality. Playoffs, training camps, indoor tournaments -- all an effort to drag more money out of the tv deals. I don't care about any of that - and hope they don't add it.
8.914 at the moment, last season it was 11.000 something. Doesn't sound that much, but for a second division this is quite a good number.