New article from Ives

Discussion in 'New York Red Bulls' started by patrickdavila, Oct 7, 2003.

  1. patrickdavila

    patrickdavila Member

    Jan 13, 1999
    Easton, PA
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  2. cmonaco

    cmonaco New Member

    Feb 21, 1999
    Montreal/NYC
    Ives is solidifying his position as the best soccer reporter in America. Loved his dig at Donovan: "And Landon, South America has floppers, but it also has young players who aren't afraid to make the jump to Europe." Damn! Show me another writer in this country who would write that sentence.

    Landon's comments were even less acceptable than his behavior during the match. Those were 2 card-worthy cheap shots taken for no reason other than frustration. To defend them afterwards is absurd and merits a fine at the very least. For all of Clint's mouthing off on the field, you never see him insulting anyone off-field. When he talks to the media he's the model of professionalism. When Landon talks to the media, he's like a petulant little kid. Clint is more of a professional than Landon could ever hope to be.

    Also, Canada would be wise to give Edgar his citizenship asap. He could certainly help that team out.
     
  3. red&black1

    red&black1 New Member

    Mar 8, 2003
    Kearny NJ
    Gongrats to Edgar... think he ever expected any of this?? From what i have heard he left Angola in his youth and joined Sporting CP(Portugal) which has one of the best regarded youth systems in the world...
    When nothing came of that he came to the US and tried out for indoor soccer... didn't make the first team but luckily impressed the second team he tried out for.. also played with the LI Rough Riders for the off season for the extra income...
    At that point do u think he ever expected to be playing top flight ball and being considered for a national team??


    Does anyone know if Canadians are considered SI??
    Would be nice to have a SI slot available when Edgar becomes a canadian citizen..
     
  4. patrickdavila

    patrickdavila Member

    Jan 13, 1999
    Easton, PA
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Canadians are considered SI's. DeRosario and Onstead (along with Faria) are San Jose's SI's.
     
  5. red&black1

    red&black1 New Member

    Mar 8, 2003
    Kearny NJ
    Yeah just read up on Dero and Onstad... I guess Edgar will have to continue in good form to hold an MLS roster spot..
     
  6. MetroFever

    MetroFever Member

    Jun 3, 2001
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    "The Fire was ready to take the country's oldest soccer tournament and make it an afterthought, an opening act rather than the main event the Open Cup final deserves to be.

    More fans would have been at Soldier Field this year, but more of them would have been there to watch Mexico than see a 90-year-old tournament that doesn't receive anywhere near the respect it deserves."

    Amen. It's bad enough that this tournament gets little to no publicity. Also, I don't think you want to be hearing "Me-HEE-co-, Me-HEE-co" for something that is considered a marquee event.

    "It will also allow MetroStars fans to show the kind of numbers that justify the potential building of a new stadium in Harrison.

    Whether Giants Stadium draws 20,000 or 2,000 when the MetroStars face Chicago in the final, the event will be a success because a new group of fans will get to experience a Cup final, a final that will get the treatment it deserves.
    "

    This is proof that Ives does read these boards.
     
  7. Matrim55

    Matrim55 Member+

    Aug 14, 2000
    Berkeley
    Club:
    Connecticut
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Ives comes off as an idiot, IMHO. Would he ever have characterized Eddie Pope as a guy who was "afraid" to make the jump to Europe? Pope, like Donovan, stayed in MLS despite solid offers from European teams. Why? Because he's dedicated to the leauge.

    Donovan and Pope should be celebrated beyond all other players in MLS. They stayed home to "grow the game" at their own financial expense. Calling Donovan a coward for plying his trade in San Jose rather than Europe is a slap in the face to the league and it's fans, and plainly speaking, it's bad journalism.

    Save the cheap shots, Ives. You used to be above that.
     
  8. In Bob We Trust

    In Bob We Trust New Member

    Jan 5, 2003

    ...i'm not sure the comment about being afraid to "make the jump" is legit, but it's simply refreshing to see someone in the soccer media not s*ckin donovan's d*ck...he came back from the bundesliga because the coach didnt want to give him a chance, and it's been MLS' gain, but where Ives could've gone with his argument, is where Arena did months ago, and that's question Landon's will...Landon is a little baby, he's cried about being fouled, and he cries about having to play so many games...guess what Landon, you're a pro now, and just like The Bruce said, in Europe they play a hell of a lot more games than Landon is right now...even better, he compared him to Beasley, saying that DMB would be more than willing to play all those games...it's great to see someone criticize 'baby jesus,' i just think the route to go is to justly question his heart/maturity.
     
  9. cmonaco

    cmonaco New Member

    Feb 21, 1999
    Montreal/NYC
    Donovan's and Pope's situations are not really comparable.

    Donovan is 21. Pope will be 30 this winter.

    Donovan has been the future of the USMNT since he joined the U-17s, and is playing in MLS at a time when the US young guns (Howard, Convey, Mathis, etc) are all looking to excel in higher competition. Pope was an original MLS player and spent his early-mid 20s helping MLS get out of the blocks (with guys like Lalas, Meola, Ramos, Harkes, et al.).

    But most importantly, Donovan is the antithesis of class, while Pope is the epitome of it.

    You're much less likely to get slammed in the press if you don't take cheap shots yourself.

    And I don't think calling Landon on not wanting to go to Europe is a cheap shot. It's indicitave of his lack of ambition and sense of satisfaction with where he's at now. Look, the guy is free to make whatever decisions he wants with his life. He could quit soccer entirely if he felt like it. He owes the fans and the press nothing. But with his talent and potential, I feel he owes himself a lot. And in that sense he's not delivering.

    If Landon's gonna criticize the play in other leagues around the world (in order to justify two real cheap shots), then he opens himself up to crticism of his unwillingness to test himself in other leagues around the world.
     
  10. harttbeat

    harttbeat Member

    Dec 29, 1998
    New York
    He's writing in Metrostar's fan perspective you a-hole. Save your crap and go to another team.
     
  11. jamison

    jamison Member

    Sep 25, 2000
    NYC
    They have the worst web layout of any online paper. It takes multiple clicks to find what you want, and the only real way to find that article is to search for it.
     
  12. Matrim55

    Matrim55 Member+

    Aug 14, 2000
    Berkeley
    Club:
    Connecticut
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    He should be writing from a journalist's perspective, you jackass. If you can't differentiate between a fanzine and an actual newspaper, I pity you.

    leo - MLS has offers from Feyenoord and Stuttgart for Pope after the 1998 World Cup, which is the situation I was referencing. I don't know if any confirmed offers came through after the last World Cup, but I've got to believe that if Tony Sanneh and Greg freaking Vanney were able to find places to play in Europe, it wouldn't have been too hard for Eddie to find one as well.

    And while there are differences, I think that similarity - the fact that Donovan and Pope (and McBride, now that I think about it) are the only world class players who have chosen MLS over Europe - make the "afraid to play in Europe" line a cheap shot.

    And FWIW Donovan was a classless twat Sunday. But so what? We won, no one got hurt, he ran his mouth. No big deal.

    I actually think it's good he took a verbal shot at our guys, and I'd hope to see some quotes from Amado or Jonny in the paper over the coming days about payback in November. This league could use a little invective other than what goes on between Garlick and Cannon.
     
  13. Haig

    Haig Member+

    May 14, 2000
    METROSTARS
    Club:
    --other--
    Come on, it was a column, not a news feature. And a damn good column, too. Bout time someone started printing the sort of stuff about soccer that makes the sports pages of the Daily News and Post far better than the Times, or any of the big Jersey papers.

    Glad to see Ives finally quit pimping Richie Williams, though the contrast he makes is between Gaven and Lisi, not Williams. Anyhow, his silence on the subject speaks volumes.
     
  14. Arisrules

    Arisrules Member

    Feb 19, 2000
    Washington, DC
    My favorite part of this piece is this part:

    "Eddie Gaven's rapid rise from young prospect to difference-maker has him taking a firm grip on a starting midfield role even when Mark Lisi returns from injury. Gaven's passing ability and strength on the dribble make him the perfect complement to Amado Guevara and has much more to do with the Metros' recent success than Clint Mathis' absence.

    For all of Mathis' inconsistency this year, he is still a star capable of turning a match. With Guevara and Gaven providing the service, Mathis will have every opportunity to finish the season with a flourish."

    I think it's helpful that it isn't just "mathis fans" who realize that the Metros in no way shape or form are better w/o Mathis.

    As for the comments about Landon, they are spot on. Matrim, there is a difference between going out searching for a contract, and already accepting one. Then, you realize you aren't going to get first time, and instead of working hard to honor that contract, constantly complain about that. In my view, if that isn't a person who is afraid of reality, then what is? That is the difference between Pope and Landon. Pope had offers, but maybe they didn't fit his needs. He didn't back off of a contract multiple times.
     
  15. In Bob We Trust

    In Bob We Trust New Member

    Jan 5, 2003
    i think landon made the right move to come back, they made it seem as if the team was dead set on not letting some young american kid play over other players...it never seemed like there was much he could do to sway that mindset...however, whoever said that he owes nothing to anyone but himself, was dead on...maybe he enjoys tearing it up here, but eventually you'd think he'd want to challenge himself a little bit more...all the great ones do...
     
  16. Matrim55

    Matrim55 Member+

    Aug 14, 2000
    Berkeley
    Club:
    Connecticut
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What is with you? Are you Clint's mom?

    The Metros have been better this year without Clint for the reasons I stated on the other thread. Yes, there are other reasons for their improved play in the past two games - most notably Richie Williams being back home amongst the other Lilliputians. But Clint has not been an asset at all since before the Gold Cup.

    He accepted one. Didn't like where he was, and demanded a transfer to MLS. At the end of two years Bayer Leverkusen wanted to call him back into the squad. Donovan said no and got two more years back in MLS (the result of which was two years tacked on the end of his BL.04 contract).

    He chose to play in MLS. And if you look at the work he's done for the league off the field you'll see he's as dedicated to the well-being of American soccer as any one in the league.

    FYI, San Jose chose him as their player rep on the board that's going to try to form the union. Think they would have done that if he was a coward?

    Please. As if he's the first person to demand a transfer or loan. And you'll notice that in 2000 FIFA instituted a rule preventing kids under 18 from signing professional contracts with foreign clubs. I'll spell it out: Donovan's situation was common enough for FIFA to re-write its own by-laws. Kids - and Donovan was one of them - were being taken advantage of by big clubs of staggering means.

    He broke off contract talks after the 96 Olympics, after the 98 World Cup, in winter 2001/2002 and after the last World Cup. He never signed anything like Donovan did - but then again that's just arguing semantics, isn't it? The fact is they both - and McBride too - spurned better offers to play in MLS and be leaders of American soccer.

    Rip Donovan for his cheap shots at Guevara and Walker, or for his smack-talk in the paper. But calling him a coward for not playing in Europe is a slap in the face to anyone who supports MLS.
     
  17. Arisrules

    Arisrules Member

    Feb 19, 2000
    Washington, DC
    Jesus, what are you talking about? First off, you proved jack in the other thread. You made some vague statements about Mathis taking up too much space in the midfield. We can both agree that the Metrostars were playing their best soccer this season both record wise and visually pleasing, before Mathis left for the Gold Cup. How come the MEtrostars were palyign so well then WITH Mathis in the lineup? According to your theories they should have sucked. Obviously, you didnt' read any of my arguments. You don't awknwoledge that over the past months injuries, and a drop in overall TEAM play have caused the Metros to drop, not the fact that Mathis is on the field. Is he part of the equation?? OF COURSE. He is just as much at fault as Amado and everyone else. My question, is why did it take so long for Bradley to adjust the lineup? Now, we have more competent fullbacks, and a stronger midfield. Why on earth wouldn't Mathis gel in with that? I just dont' see your logic at all. Even Ives, a paid journalist who covers the Metrostars disagrees with your point. Why don't you back off a little bit? As for me being Mathis' mom, yea sure. The bigger question is if Mathis has taken your gf, or personally insulted you in such a way that results in your constant negative analysis of him on these boards.

    As for your thoughts on Donovan, point taken. However, the fact is that he was well aware of the consequences of going to Germany. The fact that he again appears to be apprehensive about Germany tells me that he is just not confident. You just dont' pass up this opportunity, especially at his age. As for McBride, he more then proved his talent in his recent stint with Everton. But you have to realize the difference in situations that Pope and McBride are in. They are older players, with families. I am positive that if Pope had that opportunity at the same age as Landon, he would have taken it and ran. Does this make me anti-MLS? I dont' think so at all. It is just a realization that MLS is sadly, not yet as competent as foreign leagues. I really believe that some of our top players, have to go to Europe, to really impress the Euros. That is the only way for us to truly gain mass acceptance.
     
  18. Deuteriumoxide

    May 27, 2003
    Rockville, MD
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't think him being American had anything to do with it. Frankie Hejduk was playing for Leverkusen around the same time donovan was there wasn't he?

    I think it was more along the lines of Donovan being a YOUNG player.
     
  19. Arisrules

    Arisrules Member

    Feb 19, 2000
    Washington, DC
    Exactly deuter, it seemed that he just wasn't ready. He wasn't good enough to be on the first team. Is anything shameful about that? Of course not. He was vying to get on the first team, for a team that would eventually get to finals of the Champion's League. How coudl any of us ever expect him to get playing time in that situation? Now, is a completely different situation. He would be a very influential player on the team.
     
  20. Matrim55

    Matrim55 Member+

    Aug 14, 2000
    Berkeley
    Club:
    Connecticut
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I proved that I'll argue soccer with someone who thinks Clint Mathis, Josh Wolff, Ante Razov and Hristo Stoitchkov all play the forward position in a similar manner. At what point do you realize your credibility as an exegy in this situation is shot?

    Jesus Tap-dancing Christ, man. It's clear you don't know a lot about the game. I'm trying to explain to you how and why what happened on the field happened on the field. Be glad for it.

    No. I. Did. Not. Read it again.

    No. We. Can. Not.

    And please notice that we didn't beat a single good team until this past week. We beat the teams we were supposed to beat; improbably drew a few games we shouldn't have drawn, and lost just about every one we should have lost. That's good coaching. Period.

    No. According to my argument, we're better off now than we were. Now we're good. Before we were mediocre with a lot of heart and great coaching.

    No - I did. I'm still flabbergasted by them. Clint Mathis = Josh Wolff? I'm freaking floored.

    Yep. You know what? I'm with you here. But then...

    As you pointed out, we had injuries. How the hell was he supposed to adjust the lineup? Don't you remember the four months your heroes Gaven, Leitch and Bartolomeu weren't available?

    Mathis will play better now with the new lineup. Duh. But the new lineup overall won't play as well with Mathis and whoever as it will with Magee and Wolyniec because Mathis doesn't make efficient use of space or create space with off-the-ball runs. It's not part of his game.

    He and Amado want to occupy the same space on the field. He's shown no inclination to do otherwise, even when healthy an in good form earlier in the year. So at this point I use him as a late-game sub for a change of pace.

    I've turned down better jobs than Ives'. And let me just point out that you're defending a guy who's written, time and again, that Richie Williams is a key to Metros' success. You're defending a guy who didn't list Chris Gbandi as one of the 10 best left backs in America. You're defending a guy who is a good journalist, but isn't within shouting distance of being a soccer "expert".

    Because I'm Irish and I'm right. I'll back down when I die.

    So a professional analysis of Mathis's worth to the team means that he's done me some personal wrong? Great logic, Aris. Really impressive.

    As I said on the other thread, the Metros might still be better off with Mathis in the game than without because he's still theoretically capable of "Wow!" moments. But even when he's blazing (as he has been for a total of 85 minutes in the past 3+ months) he negatively affects the overall flow of the Metros passing game. Therefore I'd rather have Magee and Wolyniec - lesser individual players, to be sure, but better teammates.

    Too many chiefs, not enough indians. Ever hear that before?

    He went there when he was 16. He came back to America when he had a little perspective at 19. He could have forced a transfer or loan anywhere, but wanted to come home and stay here.

    The word on Donovan is that he's overconfident - he feels he has nothing left to prove after what he did in the World Cup. While I disagree with him (and I think I'm certainly not alone in that sentiment), I'm not going to rip the guy for sticking with MLS. I'm definitely not going to call him a coward.

    Why not? Juan Roman Riquelme passed up numerous opportunities to leave Argentina in his late teens and early 20s, and only moved to Barcelona last year at age 24. It's not unprecedented. Why is it so inconceivable that he may have more dedication to MLS and the Quakes than he does to fame and fortune in Europe?

    The stint with Everton was just one instance of affirming his talent. The proving of his talent has taken place over the past decade on the fields of MLS, Concacaf and (god bless him) South Korea.

    Pope was not an older player with a family after the 96 Olympics or the 98 World Cup. He was an early-to-mid-20s kid who had more dedication to MLS and DC United than the almighty dollar.

    If he had it at 16? Or if he had it at 21? I can't speak for what Pope would have done at 16, but at age 21 he was in college. At age 22 he was in MLS and the Olympics, then had the exact same opportunity Donovan has right now, and just like Donovan turned it down flat.

    So Landon Donovan and Eddie Pope would do more for MLS playing in Europe than in San Jose and New Jersey? What sort of mass acceptance are you looking for, exactly?
     
  21. In Bob We Trust

    In Bob We Trust New Member

    Jan 5, 2003
    ...you very well could be right, i could've sworn i read there was some kind of clash between landon and that particular coach, but my memory could serve me wrong...nonetheless, it's clear he made the right move to come to MLS, i just dont think thats what Ives, or anyone else with a clue is arguing...one of you guys pointed out a possible lack of confidence, but i just dont see that in the way he plays here or for the nats...i wish more people would weigh in on the comments Bruce made about Landon just not wanting to take on the rigors/responsibility of making the next step as a player making the jump to the next level, regardless of where he plays...
     
  22. jamison

    jamison Member

    Sep 25, 2000
    NYC
    FYI, First confirmed event booking for next Wednesday during the open cup final is the Matrim55 vs. Arisrules 3 round charity boxing match during halftime.

    Winner gets a paid internship at the Bergen Record doing Metro Articles under the Ives Galarcep byline, loser gets an unpaid internship at the village voice copy editing the personal ads.

    athankyou.





    ;)
     
  23. Arisrules

    Arisrules Member

    Feb 19, 2000
    Washington, DC
    First off, you are the one who started the negative comments with the "wow are you Clint's mom" comment, so I was just responding to that bit.


    The point of comparing various forwards that Bradley has coached was mis-worded by me at first. I had meant to comment on their temperament, and how they are similar in that manner. The fact though, is that Bradley uses the unique skills of his forwards to his advantage. This is no doubt the same with Clint.

    You make the comment that Clint holds the ball, thus interfering with what you see is the fluidity of the current midfield. What I think you forget is the positive aspects of having a forward who can hold the ball, and the variability that it could provide if the team combines well. Clint benefits tremendously from midfielders who can run into space and attack. We saw this in the relationship with Chung that developed. He can only benefit if Amado and Eddie can join the attack as they did against SJ. This will obviously limit a Wolyniec v. 3 defender situation, if the midfielders can join in the attack. I do not think a forward tandem of Magee and Wolyniec makes the Metrostars better. The reason is even if they make the strong run, invariably, they will not be able to beat their marker, or hold onto the ball enough to send it back. If that is true, then opposing teams will focus on the threat of Amado and Eddie, thus completely minimizing any positives we saw in the SJ game. This was evident even against SJ which has been our best game of the season. Gaven and Amado combined well and sprung our forwards, but how many times did it result in squandered opportunities? I think you are giving too much credit to those players, and are marginalizing Clint's ability to take advantage of opportunities that are given to him, not just by his goal scoring touch.

    What I can't follow is that in your previous posts, and in this one you talk about the importance the changes Bradley has made. However, you constantly resort to using Clint not being there as the MAJOR cause of the success the Metros had against SJ. That to me is a gross oversimplification of what occurred, and I think that is the main sticking point. I def. awknowledge that Mathis is not playing as well as he once was. That much is obvious. What is the cause? I have no idea. Ego? Probably. Knee? Maybe. It is obvious that at one time the match would revolve around him, but that has not occurred in a while. What I do see though in the SJ game is that by having players on the field who made less mistakes, allowed players like Gueverra and Gaven to move into space. I focus on the play of our fullbacks, and the defensive part of our central midfield, because like I have pointed out countless times before, that has been our biggest weakness this year. As a result of these players possesing the ball much better, the job became that much easier for the other players in the center. That to me is the biggest difference in the manner the team played. It wasnt' the fact that Magee and Wolyniec were making runs that all of a sudden, magically created acres of space for Amado to take advantage of. If it was that simple, I am sure Bradley would have adjusted the team for specifically that cause. But it wasn't. The team wasn't playing well, and the players were responsible for this. Bradley did take his time though in switching the tactics. Only in the past month has he tinkered with different formations, or different players. I cited injuries, by which I meant the central defense. The fact remains that our weaknesses were exploited for too long.

    I think it is crucial for Americans to also prove themselves abroad. For me this is true for a couple of reasons. First, it will prove that MLS is truly a very viable commodity, in the fact that it can train players into top notch players. Secondly, the fact that MLS is not just busch league. That it truly is quality. I watch a lot of MLS. I follow the league, so I am closer to it then most. I know that the level of play in the league has improved dramatically over the past 8 years. But the stereotypes persist. "Why are you watching American soccer" "That sucks" etc. If players like Howard and Landon do well, then people will realize that the teams are not garbage. What I also realize, is that Landon has an opportunity to really do something special. As for his demeanor in general, he is a hypocrite. On the one hand criticizing any fouls on him as being too rough, and then promptly turning around and justifying his actions is ridiculous.
     
  24. Deuteriumoxide

    May 27, 2003
    Rockville, MD
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Prove that MLS is a viable product to whom exactly? American players performing well in Europe may make Europeans think more highly of MLS. Sadly, Europeans do not buy Metro season tickets.

    Now, American soccer fans who like European soccer and think MLS is bad, well they may start to pay attention based on more and better performances by Americans in Europe.
    Once again, I don't really know that these people will ever sell out the home depot center.

    Major League Soccer's success and continued growth depends entirely on it's acceptance by more average American sports fans.

    So I don't think sending players to Europe will ever benefit MLS that much (other than the transfer fees of course).

    BUT, it does help our national team.
     
  25. sccrhound

    sccrhound Member

    Oct 8, 2002
    CT
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't know about Pope, but Donovan had no altruistic reasons when he chose to come back to the US. He just didn't like Germany and being in the reserves..
     

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