NCLB and Standardized Tests

Discussion in 'Education and Academia' started by Iceblink, Mar 10, 2005.

  1. quentinc

    quentinc New Member

    Jan 3, 2005
    Annapolis, MD
    I just caught this thread, and thought it would be interesting to see the perspective of someone in high school (and from Texas as well, the nation's bastion of standardized testing).

    The thing about standardized testing, is that you get nothing out of it, absolutely nothing. It's simply a rigid, inane piece of crap that doesn't show anything. On Monday and Tuesday, my Algebra II class will be joining up with other classes to do TAKS (Texas Assesment of Knowledge and Skills) "Activities." Great, that means that I'll spend two days getting the same basic math concepts pounded into my ******* skull, when I could be learning something new in my class.

    Seriously, 99% of the students I interact with have no desire to learn, and show no capability of thinking on their own. Take the example of my "Honors" English class. I have a very good (and difficult) teacher who does a really good job. Of course, the point of English, is, in my view, to use books to learn about critical thinking and complex thought through analysis of the great works of literature. One would assume that, in a class which supposedly represents the "cream of the crop," the majority of students in there are commited, devoted learners who have the thinking skills necessary to comprehend the subliminal brilliance behind these books. Nope, they're anything but. The majority of them learn about the book the night before the test over it with a quick scan of spark notes. They view reading as a chore, and, for the most part, despise it. When we hold discussions over a book, it basically becomes an intellectual chat between me and the teacher. Others are usually busy doing their homework. Yet these are the same people that are regarded as the best students in the school.

    The point being, that just because someone has "book" smarts, i.e., the ability to remember formulas, basic book plots, etc. doesn't mean that they are learning anything. Tests don't mean crap when representing the value of student.
     
  2. Demosthenes

    Demosthenes Member+

    May 12, 2003
    Berkeley, CA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    New York City E.L.A. tests for grades 3,5,6 and 7 were today.

    These don't count for NCLB, but they do determine (theoretically) whether the children will be promoted to the next grade.

    Total bull$hit.
     
  3. IntheNet

    IntheNet New Member

    Nov 5, 2002
    Northern Virginia
    Club:
    Blackburn Rovers FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No... a "great teacher" will abide by the lesson plan, instruct the basics, and his/her students will pass the tests... I note that you did not surface an alternate suggestion for NCLB in order to determine student matery of subjects; you just pontificated against it as the NEA has instructed you to do. Congratulations... your teacher union would be proud.

    Wow... this is going to keep me up nights! Learn to discuss a point. Yes I am able to change my mind but so far you have surfaced no pedagogical alternate to NCLB that is able to assess student mastery of core subjects and teacher competencies... when you do I'll listen carefully!

    IntheNet
     
  4. Chicago1871

    Chicago1871 Member

    Apr 21, 2001
    Chicago
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That statement right there is a perfect argument against the current standardized NCLB arrangement. "Lets not make the dumb kids learn more, lets make the smart kids learn less." :rolleyes:
     
  5. IntheNet

    IntheNet New Member

    Nov 5, 2002
    Northern Virginia
    Club:
    Blackburn Rovers FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Equality is a Good Thing Chicago... that's why it's called "No Child Left Behind"...not 'Some Kids Moved Ahead'!
     
  6. needs

    needs Member

    Jan 16, 2003
    Brooklyn
    Read earlier in the thread, where iceblink laid out, in great detail, proposals for comprehensive student work portfolios that could be evaluated by parents, administrators, and educational experts.

    Of course, it would cut out the politicians who ride the testing issue every election and the testing companies that get rich off of it, so it can't be a viable option.
     
  7. IntheNet

    IntheNet New Member

    Nov 5, 2002
    Northern Virginia
    Club:
    Blackburn Rovers FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    needs... I appreciate your response but these "student work portfolios" just don't do it! Let me explain why... such "portfolios" are simplistic and elementary, on the order of hanging up kindergarten students art drawings! They have no functional ability, cannot be used as deterministic to judge teacher and student capabilities, and are illustrative of the problem. Student capability and mastery of subject matter, and teacher ability to instruct same, cannot be determined by "student work portfolios" but need to be assessed through testing and analysis. How do you illustrate, in such a "student work portfolios" student mastery of basic grammar, geography, history, and mathematical computation?

    I would guess that the NEA suggested such "student work portfolios" as a way of getting around the requirements set forth by NCLB... while such "student work portfolios" should be maintained as a record of achievement for all students, they CANNOT be used as deterministic matter to judge comprehension of subject matter. Further, since the "student work portfolios" are prepared by the teachers, they CANNOT be used to critique teacher capabilities, a factor that NCLB assesses.
     
  8. quentinc

    quentinc New Member

    Jan 3, 2005
    Annapolis, MD
    Chicago's exactly right. It's ridicolous to assume that everyone should learn at the same rate, and the same difficulty. I wouldn't learn anything if teacher's taught to the requirements.
     
  9. quentinc

    quentinc New Member

    Jan 3, 2005
    Annapolis, MD
    The irony is stifling...
     
  10. Dr. Wankler

    Dr. Wankler Member+

    May 2, 2001
    The Electric City
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Of course you have to guess. It's painfully obvious why.
     
  11. IntheNet

    IntheNet New Member

    Nov 5, 2002
    Northern Virginia
    Club:
    Blackburn Rovers FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Dr. Wankler.. we are having a discussion herein on student testing... it is clear you just want to add "drive-by" derogatory commentary rather than contribute in any meaningful way... do you have something to add or is the subject too intellectual? Really... please add something tagible on student testing or refrain from the leftwing bomb squad insults.
     
  12. quentinc

    quentinc New Member

    Jan 3, 2005
    Annapolis, MD
    His two sentences had more truth than the crap you've been spouting over three pages.
     
  13. Dr. Wankler

    Dr. Wankler Member+

    May 2, 2001
    The Electric City
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    There were no insults in my post. I pointed out two true facts. One: you have to guess about portfolios. Two: everyone here who is involved in education either as a teacher or as a student can clearly see WHY you have to guess about portfolios. You have no idea what they are or how they are used. Now, if you take the time to read earlier posts, you might have an inkling as to how they work, and thus you might be able to "contribute in any meaningful way." Until then, you are simply trolling. And again, that's not an insult, it's a statement of fact, given the objective definitions of "trolling."
     
  14. pething101

    pething101 Member

    Jul 31, 2001
    Smyrna, Ga
    Club:
    West Ham United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Inthenet,

    Explain to me how one test can adequately evaluate every child in the entire country?

    Given the inequalities with school systems, I just dont see how one federally mandated test can fairly do this.

    Is it fair to ask schools in small, rural, dirt poor counties of North Carolina like Hoke and Robeson County, where schools dont have the resources they need like computers, encyclopedias, qualified teachers, etc because of low property tax values to compete with the school systems like Wake, Orange and Mecklenberg Counties who all have resources that I would die to have in my Cumberland County, simply because they have higher property tax values and can generate more revenue? It is astounding the differences between the rich counties and the poor counties in North Carolina. Some high schools dont have encyclopedias from the 1990's while some high schools have their own television and radio broadcasts.

    Even more to the point, the rich counties can attract the best teachers since they offer supplements ranging from 6 to 10 percent of their yearly salary while poor counties often struggle to find certified teachers to come work in the poorer, more rural counties. It is not rare to see several substitutes teaching year around in rural counties b/c all the certified teachers flock to the counties where they can get the 10 percent supplement.

    I just dont see how one test can adequately measure every child in the USA fairly. I just dont.
     
  15. IntheNet

    IntheNet New Member

    Nov 5, 2002
    Northern Virginia
    Club:
    Blackburn Rovers FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Funny... that's exactly how I read it... let's read it together shall we?

    That's it... you added nothing on standardized testing or portfolios or anything else... just your typical 'drive by' sarcastic commentary!

    .

    Tell me... am I missing something... I don't see either "one" or "two" in what you posted... but let's both look shall we?

    Nope... no "one" or "two" there....

    Trolling eh? How about this:

    The subject of this discussion is "NCLB and Standardized Tests" and nobody has yet illustrated one thing wrong with them, unless improving education in our nation's schools is somehow wrong!

    Now on to subject at hand... I've read about Portfolios and I've read about No Child Left Behind... which one is fixing schools, being mandated by Secretary of Education, has demonstrated success nationwide, and is forcing school districts around the nation to improve schools on behalf of students? Portfolios or NCLB...

    For parents and students the answer is clear....
     
  16. Dr. Wankler

    Dr. Wankler Member+

    May 2, 2001
    The Electric City
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Actually, they have. Read earlier in the thread.

    Actually, distrunner is a high school student. He knows more about this than you do. He doesn't have to "read" about it. He experiences it. Hence his answer is clearer than your ideological trolling. As was evident in your fake response to actual teachers above, reposted here:

    1) is clearly a faulty and misinformed characterization of portfolios, proof that you didn't read earlier posts where this was explained to you.

    2) is a bunch of pseudo-intellectual gobbly-gook which only says "they don't work." Which is incorrect.

    3) shows you INSISTING, not arguing rationally and

    4) has also already been explained to you.
     
  17. quentinc

    quentinc New Member

    Jan 3, 2005
    Annapolis, MD
    Are you that incredibly dense? Really, lay off the drugs and actually read the posts.
    I'm a student, does it look like I'm a fan of Standardized testing and/or NCLB? Hell no. Maybe Iceblink was right, there is no point in even arguing with you. I thought I would never use my ignore list, but now I just might...
     
  18. Chicago1871

    Chicago1871 Member

    Apr 21, 2001
    Chicago
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You just don't want to be the dumbest guy in the room anymore.
     
  19. Chicago1871

    Chicago1871 Member

    Apr 21, 2001
    Chicago
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Proof positive: best. sock. ever.
     
  20. IntheNet

    IntheNet New Member

    Nov 5, 2002
    Northern Virginia
    Club:
    Blackburn Rovers FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I picked that up on your first post here! Without a doubt!

    Thanks distrunner450... that's a good testamonial for No Child Left Behind (NCLB) testing...students typically are strongly against tough curricula and testing which mandates basic core competencies for every child, even you! Secretary of Education Spellings made such a point just yesterday! Expect this testing to migrate from elementary and secondary schools to high schools across the nation, and even into higher education as time goes on.

    You can argue against me, but you can't argue against law; NCLB testing is now law. As a parent, I am glad this law forces change. Live with it, and then acknowledge that schools will gradually improve as poor teachers are weeded out and all schools learn to teach core competencies FOR EVERY CHILD.
     
  21. Dr. Wankler

    Dr. Wankler Member+

    May 2, 2001
    The Electric City
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Oh, Bull shlt.

    Neither Mr Muggums your teddy bear nor G.I. Joe counts as a child, skippy.
     
  22. quentinc

    quentinc New Member

    Jan 3, 2005
    Annapolis, MD
    You're an idiot, did you read my first post in the thread? There are "good" students at my school who couldn't tell you what language people in Ireland speak (I am not making that up). Don't feed me B.S. about how NCLB is supposed to do any of that. Standardized testing is a complete joke and waste of my valuable learning time.
     
  23. Demosthenes

    Demosthenes Member+

    May 12, 2003
    Berkeley, CA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Having had a day to think about it, and ITN's trolling aside, there is a lot to complain about in regard to yesterday's reading test. Two things really strike me:

    1. I'm very familiar with the NY State learning standards. I'm supposed to teach to the standards. But there's no way the test could be construed as assessing whether the students have met the standards. There's really no connection. No-where in the standards (or NYC scope-and-sequence) does it say that children must be able to read and understand a short passage taken completely out-of-context, and then recognize the most reasonable inference based on the passage, from among a group of alternatives. That's what the test really asks them to do. Oh, yes, and they must do that timed and under pressure. Why on earth is the test timed? Why should 3rd graders go home crying, because they only finished 30 out of 50 questions - when they could easily have aced the test, given another half hour to work on it? What possible value can the testing time-limit have?

    2)If you don't think the tests don't match the standards, you probably don't know how these tests are designed. The test creators use sample groups to make sure that the tests are the "right" difficulty level. That is, they don't look at the standards and write an exam which tests whether students have met the standards. Instead, they write a test and if too many students pass, then they make the test harder. The test is designed to be failed by a certain number of students. I can't get my head around the hypocricy of this. Supposedly we do this testing because we want to make sure all students are learning... but all the tests really measure is who is learning more than whom. Therefore my impoverished urban students will always fail this test. They will never acheive what students from better neighborhoods acheive, so therefore they will always fail.

    If I were a conspiracy theorist, I might think someone was actually trying to keep Black kids down.
     
  24. RoverMax

    RoverMax Member

    May 4, 2003
    NYC
    Club:
    Blackburn Rovers FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    As long as there are percentiles, and they are always going to look at percentiles, some people are going to do well and others aren't. I have benefitted a lot from standardized testing but even I think it's garbage. In reality, standardized testing doesn't test what you learn and know. Anyone who advocates more of it doesn't know anything about education.
     
  25. Chicago1871

    Chicago1871 Member

    Apr 21, 2001
    Chicago
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    'Cept ITN.
     

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