Discussion in 'NASL' started by AndyMead, Nov 16, 2017.
email just in:
Looks like NC got out while the getting was good and NASL had no D2 sanction (meaning drastically lower exit fee). NASL seems none too pleased about it. But losing two teams in two days is bound to have that effect.
As Neil Morris rightly points out, this means everyone (from either an ownership or team perspective, or both) who broke away from the USL back in 2009 is no longer in the league they broke away to form.
Atlanta - bye
Carolina -to USL, bye (and the Wellmanns were out before the first NASL ball was kicked)
Miami - to Fort Lauderdale, bye
Minnesota - to MLS, bye
Montreal - to MLS, bye
St. Louis - bye
Vancouver- to MLS, bye
Puerto Rico (Islanders) - jumped later, bye
Baltimore - only in USSF2 league in 2010, bye
San Antonio - bye
Ottawa - to USL, bye
Tampa Bay - to USL, bye
OKC - bye
San Francisco - bye
Puerto Rico FC
Even Rochester, who initially jumped, then jumped back, is likely gone.
That’s a lot of goners for the superior business model and getting to own your own marks.
Kartik will expose it all.....you'll see!!!!
I was thinking the same thing this morning. All the USL defectors are now gone and Edmonton, the only original NASL team left seems poised to leave. But they should please tell us again about how their model is superior...
How did the USL teams that were left behind fare in since the same time? Curious as to the comparison of the 2 leagues.
I believe 7 (8 depending on how you view Orlando City/Orlando City B) of the original USL Pro teams are still around of the 12 they started with (albeit with some name changes/franchise trading/etc...)
And several teams still exist from before the split including Charleston, Charlotte, Pittsburgh, Harrisburg/Penn FC, Richmond, and Rochester. Though most of those were in USL 2 (D3) before the split.
2011 USL line-up:
Antigua Barracuda - folded after 2013 season
Charleston Battery - active
Charlotte Eagles - dropped down to PDL
Dayton Dutch Lions - dropped down to PDL
FC New York - folded after 1 season
Harrisburg City Islanders - active
Los Angeles Blues - active as Orange County SC
Orlando City - moved up to MLS
Pittsburgh Riverhounds - active
Richmond Kickers - active
Rochester Rhinos - active but in trouble
Wilmington Hammerheads - dropped down to PDL
Two teams folded pretty quickly. Those are the only two that don't exist at all.
Three dropped down to PDL. Six are still active in USL. One moved up to MLS.
I'd consider Charlotte as still active since the Eagles sold their USL Pro franchise rights to the current Charlotte Independence owners and the D2 franchise continued without interruption, albeit under a new name and ownership.
Oh I've created a request to move thread in the Customer Service section to get the NCFC section into the USL Subforum.
Fair enough. The Eagles still exist but there was definitely continuity in Charlotte in terms of having a team in the league. There is no equivalent situation for the NASL.
Or just close it. I'm not sure team subforums in D2/D3 are very useful for the vast majority of clubs anymore. Much as it is with the NWSL.
I am not sure I would consider Charlotte Independence a continuation of the Eagles franchise because the Eagles should take all that history with them. (And they can’t BOTH have it.) Even though they did buy the slot they didn’t really get any assets.
Like when Nashville sold their D2 rights to the final iteration of Virginia Beach. The Metros re-emerged in the PDL (again) and it does not seem fair to make their history start from that point and give the Mariners the history that includes the Tennessee Rhythm playing at Battle Ground Academy in the suburbs.
And the Spurs bought the Scorpions’ stadium, but not their NASL franchise (which was rumored to move to Vegas, remember? Good times.) and not their IP. Obviously. That’s not a continuation either, but a circumstance where a team goes away and another in the same market follows hard upon. (Like Phoenix FC and Arizona United/Phoenix Rising, which are not the same franchise, either.)
I mean, if you want to make your own list you are free to do whatever. But franchise shifts and sales are so rare at these levels that it is hard to have a consistent rule. And when I update my list, I look at these things on a case-by-case basis.
Yeah I can see both sides. But since the franchise rights were sold from one group to the other I can see it being a bit of a Cleveland Browns type situation. Yes I agree the Eagles took their history with them to the non division leagues, that's not really up for debate... but their spot in D2 was also maintained by the new Independence owners without any expansion having taken place according to the league. As I recall they paid no expansion fee, and the league just signed off on an ownership transfer as if a regular sale had taken place from Eagles to Independence. Essentially an old franchise was maintained that just happened to have retain no existing IP and no existing on field team.
However it's counted however it up to the individual, but it was clearly a fairly unique situation. And there was some continuity in that Charlotte and the Charlotte fans have not been sans-USL Pro since the inception of the league.
USL Pro has a couple of these oddities, which is why I also highlighted Orlando City. Yes the newer Orlando City B is not the USL Pro Orlando City SC, but they do maintain the same ownership as the USL Orlando City SC (and its MLS follow on). And if not for the one year hiatus while the MLS Orlando City SC established themselves, they'd have a similar continuity of presence in USL Pro not unlike Charlotte, with continuity of ownership as well.
That's all true.
But there is no other continuity between the Eagles (who, again, have not ceased to exist) and the Independence. Not ownership, not players, not IP, not a stadium lease or sponsorships. Not front office people, not anything.
Our sport is kind of unique in this respect, with its levels and the ability to go up and down. When the Seattle SuperSonics move to Oklahoma City, they can reasonably say they can leave the history in Seattle and have OKC start fresh. By the same token, the Minnesota Twins can claim the Washington Senators' history. (The Nationals fly a 1924 World Series championship flag at Nats Park, FWIW.) But there was no lower league for someone connected to the Sonics to start a "new/continuation" Sonics in.
The Colorado Foxes became the San Diego Flash, but not because Rich Karlis and company decided they would rather be in Southern California. It was because Yan Skwara and company bought an A-League franchise from them rather than from the league. But they weren't flying APSL championship flags at Flash games because of the 1992 and 1993 titles the Foxes won. And there's no point in considering them the same franchise, even if Skwara bought the slot.
I get what you mean about continuity in a market, but Phoenix had a team in 2013 and a team in 2014 and they're not the same franchise, either. USL revoked Phoenix FC's franchise and awarded a new one to Arizona United (which became Phoenix Rising FC).
It's not clear cut. If the Eagles had ceased to exist, or if the entire Eagles organization hadn't just kept on with business as usual, just in a lower league, there'd be more ammunition for that point of view. (The Eagles had been up and down between the amateur ranks, Division III and Division II over the years.)
Our responsibility as historians is to tell an accurate story in context so that when we look back, we have a full accounting of what really happened.
The Eagles still exist. For all intents and purposes, it's the same club. Also for all intents and purposes, Orlando City SC is the "original" Orlando City SC (nee Austin Aztex I, one of the few clear-cut instances of a lower-level club owner moving that club from one market to another) and Orlando City B is not (any more than Louisville is, which was kinda-sorta the USL Orlando franchise, moved by a part-owner).
There aren't many instances of this. I take the role of historian seriously because we don't have a lot of them and a lot of stuff never got written down and I think it's important that it be kept alive (especially now that people have this sudden interest in the lower levels as some sort of mission-critical component when they wouldn't give them the time of day prior to 2010).
You are certainly free to make any list any way you like. But I call the Eagles and Independence separate franchises. YMMV.
Fair enough. My view would probably have more credence had the Eagles ceased operations when the transfer took place. But that’s neither here nor there. Strictly speaking you’re correct from a historical POV about both Charlotte and Orlando. However, I will say the fact both cities retain USL Pro teams to this day with only a one year hiatus between the two cities is still a notch in USL’s belt when comparing it to NASL as those markets are still intact even if not technically with the original teams.
So now the NASL is down to 6 teams? How long until they close? I can't imagine they gonna compete next year with just 6 teams. That's so silly.
Technically they have 8 teams. The six remaining (for now) and the two expansion teams, Orange County and San Diego. They also claim to have some more teams that have signed letters of intent to join the league. Those appear to mostly be NPSL teams that would need financial support to move up.
We shall see what happens.
A lot hinges on the result of the appeal. If it’s not successful (or if a deal is not reached beforehand that keeps them alive), it appears to be game over. The Cosmos won’t play and that’s pretty much it in that circumstance.