USL Pro is kicking NASL's butt in the expansion race. You could argue whether that's good or bad long term, but NASL is losing markets like Sacramento, Austin and St Louis that have D1/D2 upside. Perhaps the answer is to create NASL2, which aims for a D3 standard. This allows clubs that want to progress to D2 one day to come under the umbrella and grow without the financial burdens of D2, including a smaller expansion fee. Perhaps NASL2's champion each year wins the *option* for promotion without paying an expansion fee as long as they meet all of the other criteria. Stay in NASL2 if you can't meet the standards, go up if you can and want. NASL1 clubs could follow MLS suit and put B sides in NASL to get their reserves competitive games. Eventually this leads to pro/rel WITHIN NASL, giving the league another differentiator vs MLS.
I find it humorous that this was the company speak Tim Holt used to feed us about USL, promotion/relegation between usl1 and usl2 with regional groupings. Still not a bad idea, even for the NASL.
I think NASL needs to have a second league. NASL needs to get the other big markets like San Diego, Detroit, Milwaukee, San Fransico and so on before MLS. Also, they need to get the Austins and Birminghams. Then NASL can do pro/reg between NASL1 and NASL2. People can choose between MLS, no pro/reg, salary cap, playoff and franchise league. Or NASL, with pro/reg, no salary cap, single table league like EPL.
To be fair, the idea of pro/rel within USL predates Holt. Pro/rel within the NASL is still just moving DII teams around. So if Jacksonville paid $5m or whatever it was and is doing things right and spending a bunch of money and they have a bad season and get relegated to NASL2....they're still in D2, they'll just be playing teams that paid $2M for their franchise? And are basically Division 2.5? That would be a differentiator, true, but whuck? So what? For whom? "Oh, we're definitely going to invest in NASL because we could be an NASL team," because, God knows, you couldn't just start in NASL. I guess I should never be surprised at the lengths some folks will go to to try to find a scenario under which a team could get promoted (even if it's just a half-level) so they can get that rush or whatever they think will happen on the last day of the season. "Yeah, but what if you did it this way.....?" Enough already. Jesus H. Christ on a popsicle stick, are you people EVER going to try to stop grafting this solution onto places that don't have the problem that calls for it?
No. No they are not going to stop. It would take European leagues abandoning pro/rel and yet somehow not turning into crap leagues as a result. Which is actually far more likely than it being adopted throughout the US soccer pyramid.
But the NASL has to be better than the other two leagues, it just has to! With this idea, they can stick their tongues out at MLS and say "since you won't let our teams earn their way into your crappy single-entity league, we'll do our OWN promotion/relegation, nyah nyah!". That'll make the NASL different from them too, and of course, different is better. Also, at the same time, they can crush the stinky USL and prevent them from getting any good markets that the NASL might want. It doesn't matter if an investor or investors actually want to put an NASL team in any of those markets, you have to squash the notion of (gulp) someone even considering putting a USL Pro team in one of those locations. They should only have access to the small and puny secondary markets because, you know, they're the enemy and vastly inferior and stuff. If you weren't constantly being hysterical and a dick, you'd understand!
My personal opinion is that NASL has to keep its mouth shut for quite sometime about what it is planning b/c MLS will do what it can to undercut NASL's ambitions and plans - unless NASL decides to kowtow to MLS and they work together for the benefit of soccer in this country. sorry, i made a funny. I meant unless NASL agrees to work for the benefit of MLS! Anyway, until stuff is formalized, NASL has to sthu about future plans and markets. I am definitely not a fan of this, but it seems like the prudent thing to do from their perspective - at least as it appears from the outside. As for USL Pro, I wouldn't jump out the window just yet. Their kowtowing to MLS is great for them financially, so far definitely has provided stability in their ranks. IS this like the first time in forever there isn't a death watch in USL PRo or is it just me? But I want to see what the reaction of stronger and more stable teams in USL PRo will be in a couple of years when they begin to realize MLS is not an option and the closest they are going to get to mLS is playing MLS minor league teams in front of like zero fans. If NASL can last that long I think there will be a whole different view of things from the USL Pro perspective. - again, this is all pending what actions MLS takes as these scenarios unfold. Get off the ledge! NASL will be ok. (probably)
This concept of creating a second division within NASL with promotion/relegation is absolutely great idea.
i was also thinkin' of a similar idea in regards to the 'Soccer War' between the NASL and USL. the NASL, partly due to the bumbling of their Commissioner no doubt, has lost prime markets in Sacramento, St. Louis and Austin to USL, and it doesn't look good for them in OKC and Tulsa. also there's the question of the VA Cavalry difficulties. maybe NASL2 could be a place for expansion teams to start out in D3 with lower costs before steppin' up to Division 2, as well as support certain NPSL teams with the potential to become pro in their competition with USL in Oklahoma, and Detroit dependin' on what happens with Detroit City and the Michigan Bucks. and then there's the question of Canadian and West Coast expansion. just including the most successful NPSL clubs and other rumored expansion markets, we could have something like: San Francisco San Diego Flash Victoria Highlanders Calgary Hamilton Quebec OKCFC Tulsa Athletics Chattanooga FC Detroit City FC Hartford VA Cavalry in NASL2 teams that are havin' venue difficulties like VA Cavalry could start out playin' in highschool stadiums, with a smaller expansion fee, without making NASL1 look unprofessional. maybe there could be automatic promotion for the NASL2 winner and relegation for the cellar dweller in NASL1. or maybe there could be optional promotion and relegation at the discrepancy of the teams and the league. the biggest negatives of course would be the cost of amateur teams going pro, and travel. and the other drawback would be losin' one of the only NASL advantages over USL: their cherished D2 designation. a lot of people say that the difference between D2 and D3 is irrelevant, but i disagree. but i digress... NASL2 would be an interesing option for NASL to look at if they want to up the stakes in the 'Soccer War'. personally, i think the 'Soccer War' sucks and we should all be friends...
Don't you think it is too early for this? The league only has 10 teams going right now, is a second division really an option?
I agree. Need to keep this shit secret. In fact, this thread and all others like it should be erased before Don Garber finds em! We all know his number one obsession is stopping the rise of the mighty NASL. Stupid USL! Working with another league to create stability and sustainability. LOL! LOSERS! I don't think you're gonna see much rage and resentment from USL teams when they MLS is not an option, because many of them are not looking at MLS as an option anyway. They know what they are. Those owners are D3 because that's what they can afford. The owners who wanted to move up, like Orlando and Sacramento, are doing so. If the owners of Charleston or Richmond were dreaming of MLS glory, they've had many years where they could've done something about it. Seems to me they're content operating in their comfort zone. As for the proposal this thread presents, it appears to be a case of doing something just to do something, not necessarily because it solves a great problem the league is facing. Wasted energy.
To think I had him on ignore. I was missing some great comedy. I know; what the fuzuck are they thinking? Oh, but it WOULD solve a great problem! According to the chosen few, USL-Pro is taking away prime markets that the NASL should have. The fact that the owners in those markets actually chose USL-Pro willingly is beside the point. Such blasphemy cannot be allowed to continue! It's just you. It's always just you.
I also find it funny that everybody's answer to soccer's "problems" in the US is "more leagues!" Whether it is the ASL (which is starting as an amateur league before trying to become pro later; which means that their teams couldn't make it to USL-Pro to begin with), or the phantom US-AFL which has that weird notion of seven levels of pro-rel (but whose website is now under re-re-re-construction), or even the PDL's second-season idea (which could have worked, but the new NCAA split-season idea could throw that for a loop). I still wish that the soccer powers could have melded all minor-pro soccer into one league, where the then USL-1, USL-2 and the "Team Owners Association" could have come to terms, even after going through that one-year "USSF Division Two League."
If Garber was Commish of the new NASL, I bet he'd be advancing the concept of pro/rel. It took a non-soccer guy like Garber to make a more focused appeal to core fans on behalf of a floundering MLS in the first place... I think all he wants these days is an easy chair. USL has been part and parcel of American soccer's instability for more than two decades now. I think that USL Pro team owners in OKC, Austin, St Louis, etc would tell you otherwise... I believe the lure of D3 in USL Pro over D2 in the NASL revolves around "acceptable risk" more than what some of these market can and can't "afford." Tell me more about how well that's worked out for the Rochester Rhinos... So, you find the status quo acceptable? I think the new NASL will be toast in the next few years if "they're content operating in their comfort zone."
Time will tell. Seems Rhinos fans aren't too excited about d3. Advance or die. Grow or die. Progress or die. Stagnation is death.
You think Rochester would've been a great MLS success story? That team would've joined the Fusion and Mutiny, or relocated with a new owner. The reason they still exist is because they stayed in the lower leagues. I don't know. He seems to be much too financially prudent to try to waste time on advancing a concept that 1) won't happen anytime in the forseeable future, and 2) would bring greater instability with more teams on precarious financial footing. Yea, so it's good that they might finally reach some level of stability. If they want in, they still have many years to put together a realistic plan to be successful in MLS. Maybe, but there's not that big of a difference between the NASL and USL. The financial gap is much smaller between them than MLS and the NASL. I was just pointing out that most owners in the USL are not clamoring for a chance to move up to MLS because they know that gap is far greater than they can jump. Pro/rel within NASL doesn't really change anything. "In other news, the Tampa Bay Rowdies have been relegated from the NASL to the NASL, except this time they will have no shot at competing for the championship. This promises to be a very exciting season. THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT BE TELEVISED! Because we have no TV deal!" I mean, what does that achieve? You're just shuffling teams around within the same league. As far as revenue and operating costs and other standards, everything stays the same. So what's the point? Just so you can "punish" mediocre teams by banning them from competing for the league title for a year? "Bad Scorpions! You've been very bad! You failed to be competitive for the title last year, so this time we're gonna guarantee that you will have no chance at the title for another year! This will make your players develop much faster, and the fans will be so excited at the end of the year when you get promoted because things will change so much!" If the NASL wants to grow, they can do so by continuing to bring in better and more stable ownership and teams, continue to work to develop better talent, better marketing, raising attendance, raising revenue, improving the infrastructure of the league. Installing pro/rel for cosmetic purposes does none of that. The NASL, like MLS and the USL, is still in expansion mode. It's a small league that is still trying to grow while at the same time remain stable as much as it can. If we ever get to the point where there's actually too many decent, stable teams of equal footing than one league can fit, then we can talk about pro/rel. Right now, that is the furthest thing from the current reality.
In a perfect Pro/Rel world (without single entity), Rochester could have "played their way in," and then after a season or two of MLS in which they don't have the money to compete and finish at the bottom of the table, they get relegated back down...... instead, we're stuck with a sad story in which an MLS ready stadium is built, and not a single MLS game is ever played there. (this is where Ruf puts on his flamesuit) I believe Garber knows what to do with an opening when he sees it. The opening is this: MLS will never have pro/rel, so any shrewd businessman would be more than happy to at least give lipservice to a popular concept that could someday differentiate the NASL in a positive way. They've cast their lot and exploited an opening created by the NASL (and USSF) that has allowed USL Pro to sell a relatively comparable product at a significantly cheaper price with the bonus option to affiliate with an MLS team. In the USL Pro camp, I'm sure they're banking on getting back into the D-2 business the day after NASL fails. I believe Holt "chose" not to satisfy USSF requirements to place USL Pro in D-2 because it would have painted him into a corner. I don't recall arguing for Pro/Rel between the NASL and MLS. I don't mind being open about wanting some sort of Pro/Rel system in place in the future, but I've never been a fan of hypothetical arguments. I went without high level domestic pro soccer for ten years-- so I was a fan of MLS doing whatever it needed to do to survive for the first ten years. But I also know that Tulsa fans have gone without pro soccer for the last 15 years-- including several years in which Tulsa was a candidate for an MLS expansion team or a relocated Kansas City team. I believe that in the past, the expansion sweepstakes have had unintended consequences in which MLS candidates like Tulsa, OKC, St Louis, Cleveland, Milwaukee etc. end up doing without pro soccer for years... it'd be nice someday to see teams move up and down the pyramid rather than vanishing off the face of the earth... Not within the league as NASL2. More likely, NPSL Pro... especially after reading this love letter to the NASL that surfaced a few days ago on the NPSL website. Gotta admit, after I read it, I threw up in my mouth a little. I made the point that USL Pro is undercutting NASL in battles over the same markets... NPSL is starting to do the same with PDL. And any NPSL Pro league seeking D-3 status that has a strong affiliation with the NASL would be sweet revenge for the NASL, n'est-ce pas? Let's say your team is 3-18-2 with a few games left in the season and your fans are putting bags over their heads. Instead of going out of business at the end of the season, or getting stuck "rebuilding" for another couple of years... what would the fans think if your team started winning at the D-3 level and could play their way back into D-2? I can agree that Pro/Rel right now in the NASL would be impossible. That's not what's being argued. Any league worth its salt is going to have a 5-10 year plan. From the rhetoric I hear, the NASL seems intent on trying to compete with MLS rather than concentrating on how to effectively compete with USL Pro... this seems delusional and counterproductive. USL Pro has cast their lot as a farm league for MLS. The NASL needs to come up with a reasonable and flexible long term plan to counter this. And IMHO it needs to include any reasonable paths toward Pro/Rel as a differentiator... I keep hoping Peterson is "crazy... like a fox," but I fear he's little more than a mouthpiece for eccentric team owners. If the guy's gonna talk positively about Pro/Rel, he needs to put his money where his mouth is and have people in the room advising him on how it could happen and what it would take. Which would be far preferable to a roomful of people taking turns shooting fish in a barrel by telling him how it's impossible.
As I've posted in another thread, I find it hilarious that someone's answer to US' soccer "problems" is... more leagues! Yes! All we need is another league! Based on my personal idea! That way, everything that I envision will come to pass! Yeah me!
I find it hilarious that you feel the need to be condescending. The discussion is over whether the NASL would be better served with teams in D-3. Technically, that would be the same league with teams in more than one division. You know, kinda like what USL does... right now. I'm blue da ba dee da ba die...
I agree with most of what you're saying, but I don't get why you interact with trolls. They're just ignoring what you say. Anyway, not a criticism, just admire the determination. It would be really sad if the Rhinos were to die off. USSF can't keep this going if it is interested a strong pyramid, just from a practical perspective, it could NASL and just get us back to square one. Maybe put a cap size limitation on markets allowed to enter d3. Like a maximum population size limitation. I think NASL has a minimum size limitation. Hypotheticals of a future pro/rel system are a sure recipe for disaster. You can't predict what it will look like without even know who (what clubs/markets/business interests) will be involved. It would be exciting. I wonder what NASL is doing behind closed doors, if anything. B/c I agree with something I have seen you write in other spots, it would be nice to see NASL lay out a plan if this is truly something they want to do. If NASL is serious, and USL Pro is a competitive rival, then a NASL friendly d3 will be necessary, NPSL seems best positioned - right now. Being competitive in a lower division seems preferable to stinking about a higher level for a couple of years. Whoever says this is ignoring what you're saying. - ignoring the conversation. You're right, that's why I think they must be working on things in the backroom. At least I hope they are because otherwise things aren't looking good - even with that NASL/Canada announcement - still no new clubs announced. I think fans will welcome a system that is more than a minor league system. I think this is what is occurring, just don't know what resources they have available to them.
How about ISIS starts to lay down their arms and release all hostages in exchange for a lifetime supply of McDonald's? No... Taco Bell. Make them work for it.