Mr. Josmer Volmy Altidore

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by 50/50 Ball, Aug 22, 2016.

  1. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  2. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    1193665131407917056 is not a valid tweet id


    I bet he will be capable of being a dangerous sub into his later 30s. The haters are probably not going to be able to get rid of the big man.
     
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  3. yurch10

    yurch10 Member+

    Feb 13, 2004
    Not sure how many "haters" Jozy has. However, if wanting a goal in more than 1 Hex game qualifies me as a h8r, I suppose I am one?

    I think a "super sub" role for the NT would be perfect for him, with a start occasionally earned depending on his form vs. Sargent.
     
  4. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    He has many haters. Read this thread for proof.

    I watched parts of the MLS Cup in Spanish and English and the respect for his abilities among all commentators, current and former pros, coaches etc is universal.

    The only people who belittle him are USMNT "fans" and EPL fans who haven't seen him play outside England.
     
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  5. yurch10

    yurch10 Member+

    Feb 13, 2004
    He scored in 1 of 9 matches (think he didn't play one) in the Hex, when his goals were a tap-in from Pulisic and a penalty he didn't earn.

    In a Hex when we didn't qualify for the World Cup.

    We need better. There is no real argument. He is simply in the conversation for the US because we lack better options, and his form in MLS has been good.

    Thinking he should be a starter, or relied on in any way other than a back-up/late game sub, as an injury-prone 30 year old who hasn't scored a goal of consequence for the US since the 2014 Hex, is so ridiculous that I almost respect it.
     
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  6. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I guess you are a "fan" that doesn't care that he scored in the Gold Cup final in 2017. He also scored 2 times in what everyone thought was the make or break game of WCQ against Panama. You are a hater if you memory hole crunch time performances that don't fit your narrative. Just remember to set your back and lift with your legs while moving the goalposts.

    https://www.sbnation.com/soccer/201...updates-highlights-score-world-cup-qualifying

    FINAL SCORE — USA 4-0 Panama
    Well that’s the best performance the Americans could have hoped for. Christian Pulisic and Jozy Altidore were dominant. Here’s a recap of the USMNT’s big win over Panama.



    https://www.espn.com/soccer/report?gameId=466970

    U.S. takes big step toward Russia by thrashing Panama
     
  7. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    Jozy has scored some but he's also not scored in many BIG matches that were vital to the 2018 WC qualifying campaign. I believe Bobby Wood scored more than he did.
    It's perfectly right that we look for his replacement. No player is above criticism (especially those that failed us 2 years ago).

    That said, he had played very well in MLS in recent seasons despite injuries.
     
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  8. yurch10

    yurch10 Member+

    Feb 13, 2004
    Lol, ok. I already mentioned the Panama game. He had a tap-in that CP created (he got in good position i guess?), and a penalty kick he didn't earn. The opener (the game winner) was Pulisic taking an awful pass (from Jozy actually) by himself for an amazing goal. Yes, I've watched it.

    And bringing up the 2017 Gold Cup says all I need to know about you. Anyone who talks about the 2017 GC is a fool. Struggling in qualifying, a bunch of B/C teams in the GC, means nothing, a perfect time to bring in youth and others to develop depth and competition. What does Brucie do? Gives Miazga 45 minutes, doesn't call in McKennie, ignores every other decent alternative so he can call in the "BIG GUNZ" (off topic but it's hilarious when posters call any group of US players "BIG GUNZ").

    Great job Jozy. Huge goal in that seminal moment of US soccer, winning the illustrious Gold Cup championship against Jamaica's B team.

    (ftr - I think Jozy is fine, happy to have him competing for a spot in the team, even in the starting 11, but bringing up the 2017 Gold Cup is embarrassing. It'd make more sense to talk up his goals against St. Vincent and the Grenadines, at least they meant something.)
     
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  9. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    I have never said he or anyone is above criticism. I go by the eye test and analytics and it is clear as day that he is the best #9 we have. I am only as loyal as my options, when he has been pushed aside, I will be happy to see it.

    What separates me from the haters is I don't make up arbitrary complaints or cherry pick failings. I don't know why anyone cheers for our players to fail. I want them all to do well because we will need depth. I am old enough to remember Buddle and Findlay being reasonable options to take to a World Cup.
     
  10. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I take joy in winning all contests. I like winning the Gold Cup the Hex, I'd like to win this Nations Thing etc. You can only win the games in front of you.

    It's like you don't watch soccer, the idea that a forward only scores goals or that we always beat minnows up by huge score lines.

    The 1st bolded is just hater stuff. You guess he got in good position? You can't give the man credit, sad.
     
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  11. yurch10

    yurch10 Member+

    Feb 13, 2004
    Did you like winning 5th place in the Hex cuz our striker scored in 1 game?

    Nothing matters but qualifying for the WC for me, I'm sorry. You like winning C team tournaments and pre-Hex qualifying against st Vincent. Fine. Then Jozy is your favorite player.

    Already said I'm not a Jozy hater, and consider him one of the couple players from Couva who should remain involved in the NT picture.

    Pretending he's great, has been great, and hasn't been disappointing in his production just makes you look like his family member or something. But I've already won this argument so I'll take my "hate" elsewhere since nobody is convincing you.
     
  12. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #1912 50/50 Ball, Nov 11, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2019

    You are a hater and arguing against a straw man. Do move on.

    We were in a barely satisfactory 3rd after Panama and would have finished no worse than that with a result against a bad T and T. If Howard was not washed and Omar a blunder not a blunder prone stiff, the US would have advanced. After giving up two goals to barely USL level guys, I wasn't primarily worried about the forwards. The defense was the problem in the hex.
     
  13. yurch10

    yurch10 Member+

    Feb 13, 2004
    Love how everyone here uses "straw man". I argued with proof that Jozy isn't great, has never been great, and should be a back-up at this point. Also, that we should demand our top striker produces a goal in more than 1 game. What is the straw man?

    Not even sure why you're on about the defense and GK. Yes, they were atrocious, as was Bradley the entire Hex. The whole team underperformed. Unfortunately for you, Jozy is included in that.

    In two games (Panama/Honduras) the US scored 10 goals. In the rest of the 8 games (when we also needed results), they scored 7. Less than a goal a game for 8 games. When we finished 5th in the Hex. When Jozy was the starting striker for all of them but 1.

    You must realize how silly you sound.
     
  14. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    I am so sick of talking point BS. If you are pro big game goals the first choice is Wood. Then Jozy. Then the pool, and Sargent while I like him isn't proven any more WCQ proficient He has friendly goals plus 1 goal in a rout of Cuba.

    It's amusing to make a thing of proven qualifying goals and then go not to Wood but basically to people even less experienced and productive in such scenarios than Jozy.

    I am not saying Sargent can't start, but if you identify a metric can we apply it across the board? And I would assume Sargent requires a nuanced case. OK, apply the nuanced idea to others as well.
     
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  15. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is a blatant straw man. FInd me a post where I have called him great or implied that his production in the hex was good?



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

    A straw man is a form of argument and an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man
     
  16. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    Wood should be in camp and on the roster. He has been a good player for the USMNT, club be damned.

    I don't believe in the circular logic of not calling a guy because you haven't been calling him, that is the thinking that has left two time MLS defender of the year Ike Opera watching games from the same place as me.
     
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  17. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    Caps per goal, recently used forwards

    Ramirez 2.00 (2 caps, sample issue)
    Pulisic 2.43
    Jozy 2.74
    Wood 3.46
    Sargent 3.67
    Green 3.75
    Boyd 4.00 (but only in 1 game)
    Morris 5.29
    Zardes 5.40
    Arriola 6.00
    Weah 8.00
    Baird 0.00 (no goals)
    Lewis 0.00 (no goals)
    Ebobisse 0.00 (no goals)
    Gyau 0.00 (no goals)
    Amon 0.00 (no goals)
     
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  18. yurch10

    yurch10 Member+

    Feb 13, 2004
    Your entire premise is that he "hasn't been disappointing in his production", is it not? My argument is that he has been disappointing in his production.

    If this is a STRAW MAN, then you are saying you agree that he has been disappointing in his production. Thus, both of us agree, and I'm not sure why we are arguing.
     
  19. yurch10

    yurch10 Member+

    Feb 13, 2004
    To make this more useful (not saying you will because it'll take additional effort), I would prefer a caps per goal over the last 2-3 years (prefer 1, but not sure there are enough games to make it useful).

    Not sure goals from 5-10 years ago, or a player's form from that time period, is especially helpful to draw from today.
     
  20. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    i left out green so i added him
     
  21. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    #1921 juvechelsea, Nov 11, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2019
    i don't think that would favor who you think. the leading US scorer in 2018 was wood (3 goals). second was sargent (2). i would anticipate going back only 3 years would show pulisic and dempsey were the leading scorers, along with wood who had goals in 2018 qualifying.

    i also could see where this could be manipulated against players like green who come in and out of fashion with the regime, and for players like zardes who became recently fashionable, constantly used, despite years of modest productivity.

    i would see the recency arc as useful for an older player like jozy or a kid. do they have it at all. do they still have it. but for a 24 year old who has scored on france and belgium but may go years between fashions, i don't know if i want people playing games on some sort of "recent form" argument. why shouldn't a relatively young kid (still) not have the value of past performance? and i mean all of it. he is still on the upswing. not like he is over the hill and no longer whoever scored on belgium. where you might have a point is a 30 year old. there, "ok, how many goals does jozy have the past 3 years?" bearing in mind he was out injured 1/3 of that.

    that being said, the argument just has some superficialness to it. i may check the numbers but jozy had a goal in the MLS final yesterday, and a goal on Panama this summer. it's not like the well done dried up.
     
  22. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    in terms of NT forward performance, i think one of the things affecting performance is leaving 442 and/or retiring the clockwork dempsey. if you want that level of scoring and accuracy you should probably consider pulisic as striker. which i am surprised has not been raised given what the numbers show. but you will not get traditional target play.

    the older Fs were second or third fiddle to Dempsey in terms of reliability. the young Fs haven't had to prove much yet, and at some point here we have to pivot to proof, or roll the dice on promise.

    if people are frustrated by say, Jozy vs Zardes, fine, I agree, but (a) any solution has to be an actual upgrade who can produce now and (b) you should consider the obvious (wood) or the outside the box (pulisic). but there should be emphasis on production and accountability to same.

    the sad thing on sargent and soto (or even wood) is gold cup is the perfect extended run out to get an actual feel for if someone produces over time. we burned that on zardes and jozy. by the next GC qualifying will be almost over.
     
  23. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    #1923 juvechelsea, Nov 11, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2019
    fwiw the leading goalscorers for the USMNT in 2018 qualifying would be:
    Jozy 8
    Pulisic 7
    Dempsey/Wood 5

    In terms of hex goals 2018 cycle:
    Dempsey/Pulisic 4
    Wood 3
    Bradley/Altidore 2
    Lletget 1
     
  24. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The GC was such a mess. No Sargent and pulling Jozy early in the final. It was neither riding the old dog or trying the kids. It was the worst of both worlds.
     
  25. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    I see it as our confirmation bias problem. He knows who he wants and just wants someone to prove the deserve it. He wanted Zardes to work. You could already see on goals per cap before GC that Zardes was playing tons of minutes per goal but just hogging all the minutes. He doubled down on GC, ok, this is my guy. Didn't score after the group round. Maybe it is starting to dawn, but slowly.

    To me the problem is instead of starting with the pool and winnowing down to the ones who score most, we start with the wannabe selections and then try to justify them to ourselves, and if you consume much time doing that, and reality finally dawns, the other options have barely been touched. Now I need them to perform better than him but after I have put little investment in them. And objectively, how much have they played? The poor repeated selections suck up all the oxygen.

    Also, with this "form" bs, it just feels like there is no long term plan. The normal process is not watch form each week and pick the roller coaster. You identify talent, you give it a run out, and if it impresses, you create an integration plan of sorts. OK, this tournament he will be with us and sub, with one squad rotation start. This pair of friendlies he will start one and play 30 the other. OK, these games that count, he will start the easier and be available in the harder. And like this is planned out months ahead. And then you watch how he performs for the US and whether he still belongs or needs seasoning.

    We do it backwards. In for GC prep, but run out with C team, cut, abandoned for summer, U23 talk, but oh wait, he started B.1 well, let's bring him back, wait, let's start him. But this is still the guy you cut this spring? There is no planning. This is what form obsession does. OK, is he in fashion or out of fashion this week? Talent doesn't get that much better or worse each week.
     
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