Mr. Josmer Volmy Altidore

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by 50/50 Ball, Aug 22, 2016.

  1. puttputtfc

    puttputtfc Member+

    Sep 7, 1999
    He did that in less than twenty games. One more goal than Jozy had playing for Villareal, Xerez, Hull City, Bursaspor and Sunderland combined.

    So you claim Jozy can go Europe while admitting MLS is grossly overpaying him with respect to the world market. Interesting angle. No one knows how Jozy turned a one goal stint with Sunderland into a huge MLS contract. It is rather bizarre, isn't it?

    It's because Jozy has been the unquestioned starter for so long and we failed to qualify for the World Cup. Jozy can dominate a certain level for club and country but people question if he is Hex level anymore.
     
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  2. puttputtfc

    puttputtfc Member+

    Sep 7, 1999
    Context is huge here. There was no MLS when McBride finished college. He spent a year at Wolfsburg before joining the Crew. At that time, MLS didn't want to be a selling league and did whatever it could to keep its star players. Jozy was sold to Villareal with tons of hype and the league's blessing. Completely different situations. The idea of an American teen making it in Europe was silly in 1990.

    Fulham wasn't as bad as the teams you mention. Everton was interested in McBride as well. Perhaps there was a reason for that.
     
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  3. puttputtfc

    puttputtfc Member+

    Sep 7, 1999
    And yet, his peers voted him one of the most respected players in the league and the fans named the bar at Craven Cottage after him. Every single person who has played with or against him has a positive view of McBride. Plus, he scored more goals at that level.
     
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  4. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    He was a well respected, hard working, Premier League goal scorer. But he didn't set the world on fire in terms of production.
     
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  5. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    ference not the 02 Cup.[/QU
    He scored against the best clubs in Mexico last year. He is Hex level. The question is where's the US Giovinco or Victor Vazquez?
     
  6. puttputtfc

    puttputtfc Member+

    Sep 7, 1999
    I'll agree with this but McBride doesn't appear on any Worst Player lists.
     
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  7. puttputtfc

    puttputtfc Member+

    Sep 7, 1999
    I don't remember playing any Mexican clubs in the Hex. If you are suggesting Jozy works harder for club than country, I would agree. I don't think that's the point you were trying to make.
     
  8. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    Probably right but McBride got a move to the PL when he was 30 and scored a good number of solid goals against quality club teams the older he got. Not to mention he has 3 WC goals in 10 WC matches. That's pretty damn solid for a Yank.
     
  9. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    He was over 30 when he joined Fulham. He seemed to be their top scorer during his time with the club. They were a relegation fodder club and he fit in well with them for what it's worth.
     
  10. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    He didn't need to. He simply was a more classic type of center forward. He won them freekicks and got them some goals and I'm sure quite a few assists or plays that led to an assist.
     
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  11. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    Re McBride, your facts are simply wrong. I am looking for strikers who score in world cups, a problem Jozy has for various reasons. McBride scored 3 world cup goals, including one on Mexico. He had 2 more confed cup goals, another big tourney. He had 9 goals in qualifiers, another thing I want to see. He did score on some minnows, but he also scored 2 times on CR. He also had 5 gold cup goals, including one on Colombia. Overall he had 2 goals on Mexico and 2 goals on CR. I am not sure where the minnow-killer slander comes from. It's certainly not factual.

    I did notice as some did, when I did a historical look at strike rates, that his was not the highest. However, it was barely over 3 which is pretty darned good, better than anyone we have now but Pulisic and Jozy. He played in a less dominant era for us where we played a more defensive formation and whacked crosses in. That actually makes a goal per 3 games look great. The people he would be being compared to like Landon or Dempsey are basically the best strikers in team history, playing in more aggressive and open play periods. And he doesn't compare that bad. And review of his goals shows ironically he usually got them in games that counted (very few friendly goals) as opposed to the Zardes approach. That is actual feeding off minnows, one qualifying goal ever, gold cup goals on TnT and Cuba. Don't get it twisted.
     
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  12. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member+

    Apr 20, 1999
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    McBride was a guy that never took a play off. If those guys play for you learn to love them. he also made his teammates look better by all the hard, grunt work he did.
     
  13. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    The problems with the Jozy Argument are:
    (1) injury history (including a knee just last year)
    (2) age, and father time is undefeated, and he is 29 rising to 30 by November
    (3) with significant playing time (219') in gold cup he pulled 1G 1A

    the premise of the strike rate argument is give him the wheel and he will produce. that is not quite what we saw, is it?

    and then you are betting on/building around someone with his age and injury history. to game theory it out, "but his strike rate." well, "gold cup 2019." but, "he gets hurt every big tournament." well, but "we know he will produce and how about anyone else." which is fair enough but as per usual the game is we limit who else even gets a shot. i fail to see what the harm is in seeing if younger and less risky players with potential upside -- say, Sargent's 3.5 games per goal that is better than Zardes -- can handle it. i am talking an extended audition and not one game with C team service. if they or wood prove not up to the job, Jozy is a phone call away and his continued health and strike rate can be monitored. meanwhile the team puts its investment into its future instead of its past. the new guys have 2-3 cycles in them. jozy and zardes may not even be producing by the end of this one.

    i just feel like our short term rather than cycle long mentality is setting us up for a confluence of dropping production, age, and perhaps injury. and my tiebreaker is jozy didn't beat Mexico and didn't tear up gold cup, so it's a false confidence we're being sold. i do not get how with the benefit of hindsight these arguments get made, like gold cup didn't happen and we didn't finish second.

    to me it's like last cycle going back to beckerman/jones/bradley and not even thinking about Plan B. once you get to qualifying plan B is tough to sort out.
     
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  14. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    To put the record straight, McBride scored more goals against CONCACAF minnows (6) than Altidore (4).
     
  15. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    As he did Confed and WC goals.
     
  16. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Fair enough but people need to stop misstating facts.

    How many World Cups has each player competed in?
     
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  17. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    if you want my logic on why wood, i would try building around the kids for the future, and wood is the crossroads of right age and scored on the right teams. i would not build around jozy based on age and health. i think he is better than wood for like a mentoring third striker but then i look at his age and am like what are the odds he makes it to qatar. and i'd really rather not be going looking around for a new older striking option at the last minute. i have a feeling what happens then is zardes gets it, who couldn't score in a world cup to save his life.

    so my theory is invest in wood and see if we can get him back going. he has a higher strike rate than zardes but is younger than jozy. i think jozy letting us down like jermaine jones is near certainty and i would rather build around wood than zardes.

    my thing is really bet on soto and sargent -- not wood -- and maybe we get out of this frustration cycle. the US right now is weird where like our best 2 scorers are Pulisic and McKennie but yet we resist further youth movement and keep lurching backwards to perceived safe. we then moan about how good or healthy safe actually is. hmm, maybe we're not that secure. why not risk the younger option. we have a year to play around. but of course the goal will be to field the obvious ones and try and win every friendly and LoN match, and punt the risks down the cycle. and then laughably the risks will land during qualifying instead.
     
  18. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    McBride has 3 WCs of which he played in 10 games, 9 starts. 3 goals. And maybe an assist.
    Jozy has 2 WCs of which he played in 5 games. All starts. 1 assist.
     
  19. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    what we all want is the guy who will score on the other top 2, mexico and CR. on that score, mcbride wins 2-0. twisting that around to he (also) scored on minnows is lame. you mean he scored across the board, right? the problem with jozy is the high end, the world cup disappearances. precisely when mcbride has the 3 goals, including mexico, and that italy performance for the 2006 miracle tie.

    kind of like you could say bobby wood had 2 goals on minnows st. vincent. (but also mexico, honduras, and panama, in qualifying games just last cycle -- not that anyone seems to care these days).

    i also feel like the career stats argument is backward looking while betting on two of the better strikers from recent U20 tournaments, plus Wood who had 3 hex goals last cycle including mexico, is a forward looking argument. US Soccer has a MLS mentality when it comes to which end of the age range to err on, and Gold Cup suggests it's the wrong end, Pulisic and McKennie carrying the team.
     
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  20. laxcoach

    laxcoach Member+

    United States
    Jul 29, 2017
    intermountain west
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Close. We shouldn't call in too many MLS guys at all....
     
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  21. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    I concur!
     
  22. KALM

    KALM Member+

    Oct 6, 2006
    Boston/Providence
    I also tautologically concur that we shouldn't call in too many of anything.
     
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  23. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I remember you now! You are a Jozy hater. I decided that there is no reasoning with you about Altidore.

    Post 1459 from April 13th still stands.
     
  24. SpencerNY

    SpencerNY Member+

    Dec 1, 2001
    Up in the skyway
    if you’re being at all fair, which like most Jozy critics, you aren’t, you’d say that getting subbed out in the 23rd minute of the first game of a world cup with an injury isn’t much to judge a world cup performance on. I’d take Jozy over McBride in any of those games McBride played in. He could score on Iran I’m pretty sure.
     
  25. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Also, every post game story from the 2010 Cup was very positive about his play. I think I linked them in this thread a few months back.
     

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