Mr. Gardner suggests we're not playing real soccer.

Discussion in 'D.C. United' started by seahawkdad, Oct 27, 2004.

  1. Detective40oz

    Detective40oz Member

    Jun 16, 2000
    Fairfax, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    We are a team that just hacks and foul and doesn't play soccer according to Mr. Gardner but yet what's the aggregate for the season...

    3-2
    2-6
    0-2
    2-3
    0-1

    to me that gives us 14 goals to their 7...yeah we play boring soccer..all I know is I'd be bored to be a metrostars fan with numbers like that. It comes down to Bradley being outcoached and being too stupid to change his tactics, and his players not having enough heart to out hustle/fight DC to 50/50 balls.
     
  2. CUS

    CUS New Member

    Apr 20, 2000
    We have a winner!

    Nowak really just personifies the (Northern) European cold-weather 'all hustle and grit' type of player (and game) that Gardner just LOATHES. I wish I can find his scathing review of the Fire's '98 season--he hated it.

    (Granted you guys might have a thing or two to say about the Cup match :D )
     
  3. Stan Collins

    Stan Collins Member+

    Feb 26, 1999
    Silver Spring, MD
    I tend to defend Gardner.

    He's a one-note song, which is why he gets so tiresome. It also tends to make him see his point when it isn't there (and calling those last three matches antifootball is stretching it by quite a bit, especially considering how many goals were scored in those matches), but he does have one, and he's virtually the only one making it.

    There was a rather illuminating study done on the Premiership a couple years ago claiming that there was a positive correlation between the teams that fouled the most and the teams that won matches. If true, that should be a deeply disturbing finding to all of us.

    And I think it's plausible. Think about it: when club X fouls club Y in midfield as they are making the transition from defense to offense, club Y is awarded a free kick in midfield. That's hardly any punishment at all for club X, but if club X uses it as a deliberate strategy, then over time it will take opportunities away from club Y.

    Fouling as a strategy is not unique to soccer. The NBA certainly has it. And while a lot of fans accept it as 'part of the game' (an argument I hate for its tautology; it's part of the game because you *made* it part of the game) I wouldn't mind seeing a little more 'Showtime', just like I wouldn't mind seeing a little more jogo bonito even though, unlike Gardner, I can still respect the 1998 Fire and the current Detroit Pistons.
     
  4. DoctorD

    DoctorD Member+

    Sep 29, 2002
    MidAtlantic
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And next year Gardner will cry over dirty "cynical" tactics any time Chivas LA loses.
     
  5. JoeW

    JoeW New Member

    Apr 19, 2001
    Northern Virginia, USA
    MikeL and Stan make some good points.

    Philosophically, I agree that wouldn't it be grand if everyone played free-flowing, artistic soccer. But that doesn't happen and Gardner ends up sounding like a curmudgeon. I still remember him broadcasting an NASL game where Cosmos (with Pele) played the Dips at Woodson HS on a HS football pitch. As I remember, Paul Cannell leveled Bob Rigby (and broke his collar bone), the Dips won and Gardner was rapsodic about Clements of the Cosmos (former N. Ireland Captain) who spent most of the day making runs off the ball, tracking back on defense, winning balls and working hard. Gardner has just gotten much more curmudgeonly in his older days.

    As for the match in question, let's be clear--we didn't play brilliant soccer. But with our form not entirely on and also on the road, we played smart and got a great result that was not against the run of play. The fouling--that's more a function of attacking, challenging for every ball and putting pressure on people. It's ironic that Gardner would challenge that b/c it's the alternative to retreating into space and putting 9 men behind the ball. As Jackie Charlton's N.Ireland side showed in the "94 WC, you can be a great defensive side--by challenging for the ball every place on the field.

    The other irony is that as much as Gardner would bash us, Jaime Moreno is the epitome of the kind of player Paul admires and Gomez and Adu wouldn't be far behind. And rather than adopt a scheme and structure that restricts those players, Nowak has developed a scheme that allows them to flourish, to be all that they can be!
     
  6. doctorjim

    doctorjim New Member

    Jul 22, 2002
    Okay, we don't like Paul Gardner. He can be a pompous twit. But, really, Saturday's game was more than a bit chippy. And DC has prospered in part because of a willingness to play physically all over the field and, if necessary, to foul in midfield. Novak pretty much has said so.

    Probably more interesting was the notion that Bradley and the Metros were somehow victims in all this and, oh, that Guevara was a principal victim. I would have thought that Bradley is one of principal reasons that MLS teams have adopted more physical styles of play. His teams have frequently taken "chippiness" to new heights. The problem with the current Metro team is that they are not well suited to a physical style of play. Ricardo Clark, for example, is a talented player, but based on the last two games, I would say that he is miscast as a destroyer sort of midfielder. His game is quickness and skill, not general hacking and mugging. As for Amado G., he's a nasty piece of work, but his nastiness usually is a product of frustration, not tactical cunning.

    The larger issue for the league is whether it wants to raise the level of play by insisting that refs call the game more closely and eliminate some of the cynical fouling. As soccer goes, the MLS version has gotten very chippy. We invited two friends to a game recently -- both accomplished soccer players in high school and college, but unfamilar with MLS. Their principal reaction was the number of cynical fouls. In the long run, MLS needs to police itself a bit better and eliminate some of the worst stuff.
     
  7. kravi

    kravi Member

    May 3, 2004
    Section 134
    Look, I'm all for raising the level of the refereeing, that's all good (and very necessary). But United plays some great (and physical) soccer, and Mr. Gardner really got my panties in a bunch.

    I just wrote him an email. Y'all should too.

    --kravi
     
  8. dcuinvermont

    dcuinvermont Member

    Sep 8, 2000
    Burlington VT
    Isn't this the same argument we always get from a loosing side that gets beat on tactics?

    I think this article should go where the "Sun" don't shine.
     
  9. scarshins

    scarshins Member

    Jun 13, 2000
    fcva
    I used to like Gardner about 10 years ago when he wrote in Soccer America.

    His view of things in this article is laughable though. There was a better team playing with more skillful passing and teamwork last weekend, and that team was DC United. He seems to forget we created 3,4,5 good chances with really nice passing- I don't think I saw the Metros create even a single one. They are not a team put together to emphasize the kind of soccer he "admires". They've got 4 or 5 high quality players, supplemented by a bunch of hard running hacks. Parke? Leitch? Regan? Glen?

    Gardner has lost his mind and lost my respect. I don't think he watched the whole game.
     
  10. Jose L. Couso

    Jose L. Couso New Member

    Jul 31, 2000
    Arlington, VA
    Being a Metrostar fan for the last decade has certainly soured Mr. Gardner. :D
     
  11. Stan Collins

    Stan Collins Member+

    Feb 26, 1999
    Silver Spring, MD
    And as my previous point implies, merely calling the fouls probably won't do it. The ref has called plenty of fouls in these three games, and the team that fouled more still won. If it's true that there's an actual correlation there (it needs more study, something I might put in the stats and analysis forum if I have time), this is deeply disturbing, and argues for clear change.

    I've often argued for radical reform in the punishment of the common foul (fouls in midfield are brought up the pitch a bit to be more dangerous, or perhaps a free kick can be taken anywhere within a six/eight/ten yard radius of the foul [as long as that doesn't place the kick inside the box], allowing for the benefit of the doubt on virtually all quick restarts), but I know it would take quite a long time and some very serious arguing by some very serious people to make it happen, as FIFA moves with about the pace of the Catholic Church.

    In the interim, a fundamentally different (and far more serious) way of looking at the 'persistant infringement' caution could help a lot. If you think of it this way: "one foul is just a foul, two similar fouls is a stern warning, and three is a caution" it would help some, but it should be noted that teams are probably savvy enough to spread the fouls around. (If my reading of the play-by-play is right, the only players to foul more than three times in the last match were Jaime Moreno and Cornell Glen, two forwards. This in a match with 39 fouls called).

    To really get a handle on it, it probably needs to be thought of in a more team-oriented way. A ref should not be afraid to card a player for this type of foul if it's a clear team pattern, even if that player is not responsible for the bulk of the fouls. To think that it's a coincidence that a player is committing the same foul the team has all night becomes ludicrous when you're talking about 10 or 12 like fouls in a match.
     
  12. Jegao Paraiba

    Jegao Paraiba Member

    Aug 6, 2004
    Morgantown, WV
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Aren't there provisions within the referee guidelines that allow for a yellow card to be given for foul accumulation?
    If a given player commits 10 fouls he can (and should) be shown the yellow card even if none of the fouls in and of itself rises to the yellow card caution level.
    There are cynical and professional fouls in this game.
    The defense against this is beautiful soccer, i.e. one-touch passing through the midfield.
    We do it, the Metros can't. That's why we're better and that's why we win.
    They can't foul what they can't catch.
    There are also some short memories at work here. Anybody remember when Adu was pulled down 20 yards BEHIND the play on Gomez's second goal in the Oct. 17 game against the Metros?
    I do, and I suspect Gardner does too.
     
  13. seahawkdad

    seahawkdad Spoon!!!

    Jun 2, 2000
    Lincoln, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Absolutely agree. Persistent infringement is available, but too often I've seen refs not be willing to do anything about it, and seen some fine teams lose because the uninterrupted (by the ref) fouling succeeded in disrupting their game. And when I've paid to see that kind of crap soccer, it pisses me off. I guess that here is where I think Gardner has a point (and I can't believe I just typed that!!)

    From the middle of the field it's not really that hard to get a sense of whether a team has adopted the disruption tactic. If the team is spreading out the fouling responsibilities, walk over to the captain and say continuation will be punished. If it continues, card the captain. Given that captains tend to be important players in most teams, that might calm things down.
     
  14. BrokeFoot

    BrokeFoot New Member

    Sep 10, 2004
    Jefferson, GA
    Absolutely agree that persistent infringement should be enforced more.

    But as the rules are currently enforced, as long as you're not making dangerous challenges, disruption should be used. Another word for it is 'defense'. What we're seeing with DC is that the whole team is finally playing defense across the field. That pressure, along with the reduced space of a packed midfield plays to DC's strengths.

    DC is the best tight-space, quick-passing team in the league, & their style of play forces other teams to play their game.

    I do agree, though, that quicker and more consistent enforcement of persistent infringement (cautions) would allow the game to flow better.
     

Share This Page