Moultrie Case- Age Requirements?

Discussion in 'Women's College' started by Eddie K, May 8, 2021.

  1. Number007

    Number007 Member+

    Santos FC
    Brazil
    Aug 29, 2018
    ^^This is a very important point. Until the economics of being a great NWSL player who is not on the NT improve a lot, it’s hard to see how we improve the quality of the league. Development needs to have a return for the pro clubs to invest in it. Presently they delegate it to College.
     
    2233soccer repped this.
  2. Soccermom21

    Soccermom21 New Member

    Liverpool
    United States
    Feb 14, 2022
    First off, the college game didn’t “lose” her. It’s hard to say what kind of an impact she would have had since she never tried it. And maybe the very top players will opt out, but my feeling is that most will still go to college. And I still think this thread does not belong in this section.
     
  3. Nooneimportant

    Leeds United
    Jan 12, 2021
    It is also worth noting to your point that the men can even make a decent living at the second tier. The average salary for a USL player is $43,500 which is not that far off the NWSL average which is last I saw about $54,000. A USL player can make upwards to $80,000 at the top end.
    https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/USL-Soccer-Salary

    It is often worth the risk because even if you don't make it at the top end in MLS or become the next Pulisic or Reyna, you can have a decent living and potentially go back to college then.

    The women have no real 2nd tier. USL does apparently have plans of launching a women's 2nd tier in 2023 which may change the conversation. I think this all goes to your point that it is just not financially worth the risk for most women to skip college while it is for a lot of men.

    Totally off point, but this is why it is idiotic that the men are still trying for a year round season. It won't change the economics and suddenly get the best kids to stay in school. The financial windfalls along with fallback income if you don't get the windfall are too strong.
     
    Eddie K repped this.
  4. Eddie K

    Eddie K Member+

    May 5, 2007
    First, don't you love it when folks like @Soccermom21 keep commenting on threads they say they don't understand? Just throwing them back to the top of the forum without adding much?? Like Ohio drivers sticking to the left lane on the Interstate!
    FYI - Moultrie was verbally committed to UNC so they did lose her. That well-known super early commit was a further rationale for the June 15th rule in place now (although she was not yet in 9th grade and could talk to UNC at that point).

    @Nooneimportant it is a good point and not off topic. I think a major, if not THE major reason for the full-year "21st Century" model men's soccer proposal is to make the college game seem more 'professional'. It's all about keeping those young pro-level players (elite recruits) in college a year or two instead of going pro. The USL payday you mention, although it seems barely full time, is a horror to top mens college coaches.

    Exactly why this thread is 'about' college soccer. If there was suddenly an age-limit for the pro draft (like the NFL and sortof the NBA), would it really change the sport much? For the men, it would now- but I don't think they are going backward. That 7 million dollar payday for Paredes is significant and makes investment in youth soccer very worth it for MLS clubs.

    For the women, the pro leagues are currently well served by the college model to develop their pro talent. It means they don't need to invest in a legit minor league or really youth club soccer at all. I think maybe half the NWSL clubs are also doing youth club soccer. And those kids/families are usually paying full freight, if not more than rival clubs, and so it's more of a business to keep soccer folks around the pro club than a true investment in players.
     
    blissett repped this.
  5. Number007

    Number007 Member+

    Santos FC
    Brazil
    Aug 29, 2018
    @Eddie K

    Depends if you believe the UNC commitment was real or just part of building the legend.

    "For the women, the pro leagues are currently well served by the college model to develop their pro talent. It means they don't need to invest in a legit minor league or really youth club soccer at all. I think maybe half the NWSL clubs are also doing youth club soccer. And those kids/families are usually paying full freight, if not more than rival clubs, and so it's more of a business to keep soccer folks around the pro club than a true investment in players."

    Are pro leagues well served? The process reflects where the incentive is. Charging parents for access to the big one stop shop recruiting events and calling it development. The NWSL clubs in the youth soccer business have no rights over the players they develop. As you say, they are charging, often premium numbers, for access. This says that there is less value in the professional development path to the NWSL teams than they can gain from charging non pro potential level players for access to the brand.
     
    Soccermom21 repped this.
  6. Eddie K

    Eddie K Member+

    May 5, 2007
    MLS Clubs fought for the geographic footprint for 'homegrown' player rights and also fought for the "solidarity" payments that US Soccer had been controlling. So every time Parades gets transferred, DC United get a % of the fee. That 7M transfer fee will fund DC United youth operations, maybe including the Loudoun USL shop for some time.

    Nothing like this on the women's side so yes, agree it is all about financials. The NWSL is currently using their brands to charge families for a similar youth club experience as other clubs. Maybe better coaching, Maybe better facilities and environment, but without transfer fees - the payday - or at least signing homegrown players at a base rate for year or two, NWSL youth soccer will be fully fee-supported by the families and still just lead to college soccer (outside some sponsor dollars for gear and such).

    I think if the traditional youth club soccer to college soccer to NWSL draft route was suddenly producing players much worse than say, foreign players coming over to play - maybe the NWSL would attempt a more aggressive 'development' plan and college women's soccer would be pushed for changes, as the men's coaches are attempting....maybe.
     
    Klingo3034 repped this.
  7. Number007

    Number007 Member+

    Santos FC
    Brazil
    Aug 29, 2018
    Much worse is too strong, but you could argue that we are producing too many players of a certain type relative to others. Comes back to economics and where the payoff is. Maybe a reach, but look at the top of College soccer. UNC was once dominant playing a game that no one could consistently keep up with physically. Now, the most recent dynasty is FSU. Very different playing style built on a blend of nationalities. Is College soccer still the source of the premium player? Smith,Rodman,OM,Sanchez ( I think) all left early or never attended.
     
  8. upprv

    upprv Member

    Aug 4, 2004
    I think even ten years ago the top top college players could’ve left early and been impactful at the pro level. It’s not like the top youth players are better than ten years ago (other than natural profession) but there is a pathway now from youth to pro.
    Christine Sinclair would’ve been impactful at the pro level in her sophomore year of college.
    I think more women will go straight to pro because the option is there. The NWSL isn’t a fabulous league top to bottom so there is room for youth to come in and compete.
    And women certainly get better over the years but not the jump that guys make turning into men. A 19 year old woman isn’t growing more, putting on 15 pounds of muscle etc.

    I know several nwsl teams have local youth club players practicing with them. Idk the affiliation with the local clubs for that, just that it’s happening.
    The money part of owning and selling players is still behind the mens side. It’s coming tho. As foreign leagues get better the market is growing.
    Will be Intersting to watch.
     
  9. ytrs

    ytrs Member+

    Jan 24, 2018
    Sanchez played three years of college soccer. Smith played 2 years. The other two zero.
     
  10. cpthomas

    cpthomas BigSoccer Supporter

    Portland Thorns
    United States
    Jan 10, 2008
    Portland, Oregon
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And Pugh played zero.
     
  11. ytrs

    ytrs Member+

    Jan 24, 2018
    A strong case could be made that Smith and Sanchez benefitted a lot from the college system. Both have excelled immediately at the NWSL level and are also showing well at the international level. Pugh struggled in the NWSL and international level the first couple of years. Now she is getting her footing. Rodman has yet to show at the international level and after a strong rookie NWSL year has been a bit quieter this year. She is young though.
     
  12. Cliveworshipper

    Cliveworshipper Member+

    Dec 3, 2006
    #462 Cliveworshipper, Jul 4, 2022
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2022
    Horan also played zero college ball. Her first experience beyond youth club sports resulted in 46 goals in 58 games for PSG.

    after 3 1/2 years at PSG she moved to the Thorns, where she was tournament MVP in 2017 and league MVP in 2018.
     
  13. devad

    devad Member

    Nov 18, 2012
    Going straight to the Pros seems to be more about money than career path. You can make an argument that every player who went to the pros benefitted from the level. Does it make financial sense? Skipping college for a $32,000 salary doesn't make any sense. Jumping for a $1million dollar payout does.
     
    2233soccer repped this.
  14. Number007

    Number007 Member+

    Santos FC
    Brazil
    Aug 29, 2018
    Why would an American College graduate enter the NWSL draft versus entering the workforce? Money and/or lifestyle. The straight to pro route is not just about talent. Its about the value of your brand at the time the opportunity comes. The USSF play a huge part in setting brand values.

    Please explain what you mean by benefitted from the level. Thanks !
     
  15. ytrs

    ytrs Member+

    Jan 24, 2018
    It is interesting that other than 2018 (14 goals in 24 games), she really struggled to score in the NWSL. She scored a lot for PSG (nearly 1 goal per game), but her production dropped in the NWSL to 6 goals in 16 games, 5 goals in 26 games, 1 goal in 14 games, and 4 goals in 17 games. Competition at PSG that much weaker overall? Her team always finished in the top two in the table.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindsey_Horan
     
  16. Number007

    Number007 Member+

    Santos FC
    Brazil
    Aug 29, 2018
    Yes. in most leagues outside of the USA, the difference between the top teams and the rest is huge. More dubious conclusions are drawn from goal scoring numbers without context than anything else I can think of in the game.
     
    Klingo3034 and ytrs repped this.
  17. Eddie K

    Eddie K Member+

    May 5, 2007
    This discussion is making the point. Horan and Pugh have been discussed on BS here plenty in the past. You have to go back years to find a handful of women's "straight to pro" examples and it's not trending. I found 5 or so just at DC United who really has an avg youth academy.

    Here's an interesting comparison.
    I count only 2 US U20 Women that are already pros (Moultrie and Shaw).
    Meanwhile, for the U20 Men - not a single college listed. All are under pro contract and a few are overseas already. Would be interesting to find out how many made college commitments first though...

    Both these teams are dominant in CONCACAF btw. Men's game last night was great (although there was a 2-2 draw with Canada earlier in the tournament),

    College soccer for these "elite" mens players is no longer really a factor (a reason why d1 mens coaches want so much change) but for the women, college soccer continues to be the well-worn path to any pro soccer. At least until the P5 blows itself up over pointy football (another thread!).

    https://www.ussoccer.com/teams/u-20-womens-national-team#roster

    https://www.ussoccer.com/teams/u-20-mens-national-team#roster

    I've often asked folks would you rather have an elite player that is a boy - for the pro opportunities, or a girl - for the greater college scholarship opportunities. Sometimes folks forget there's only a "P3" for men's college soccer.
     
  18. Number007

    Number007 Member+

    Santos FC
    Brazil
    Aug 29, 2018
    @Eddie K Shaw and Moultrie being on the U20s is an example of the power the USSF have in crafting perception. Is it a coincidence that at least three of these straight to pro examples had scholarships to UNC and passed or is it beneficial to both parties in building the brand. IDK. Interesting that Alyssa Thompson was on the provisional 59 for the WNT CONCACAF and also the U20s at 17. Does that make her better than Shaw and Moultrie? Where they on it as well ? is she better than Pros they could have added already? Again IDK, but I wonder what these decisions are based on
     
  19. ytrs

    ytrs Member+

    Jan 24, 2018
    Obviously money is the biggest difference between skipping college and going straight to pro for men vs women. But, I think females tend to desire the college experience a bit more perhaps, too. I do think we will see more players like Shaw go straight to pro because the money is starting to be there (see Trinity Rodman as exhibit 1).
     
  20. Number007

    Number007 Member+

    Santos FC
    Brazil
    Aug 29, 2018
    is it though? there is an example or two every year now, but I don't see how that increases unless the salary cap structure changes dramatically. A mid level MLS pro earns a lot more than his NWSL counterpart. Rodman is unique. She is talented AND has a backstory that resonates non soccer fans. For men, the difference between skipping college and going pro is talent and potential. The money is secondary.
     
  21. ytrs

    ytrs Member+

    Jan 24, 2018
    Rodman went Pro because she was not interested in going to class. It worked out great for her because she is very talented. She also has marketing money along with her big contract. Shaw is also going to do very well in the league. She is going to get big money sooner than later. Marketing for women's soccer (Nike, Adidas, Puma deals etc) can all increase their pay above their NWSL salaries.

    When I say more players like Shaw will go pro, I mean special players like Shaw, not good college players. Special players can make Trinity money. There are several coming through the ranks now.

    The CBA just went into fruition this season. The league looks as stable as ever. I think the minimum salaries will continue to increase.
     
  22. Number007

    Number007 Member+

    Santos FC
    Brazil
    Aug 29, 2018
    Lets agree to disagree.I think you need a backstory to make big money. Talent is not enough.
     
    ytrs repped this.
  23. upprv

    upprv Member

    Aug 4, 2004
    I think for soccer for big media presence you also need to play forward or goalkeeper. How many female holding midfielders are household names? Even attacking midfielders? Or wide backs?

    how does nike make a cool commercial with a holding midfielder switching the point of attack? Or a wide back making an overlapping run and serving a floated ball in? I value those things but it’s hard to translate that to a commercial. Much easier to highlight a goal or a save.
    Not that it can’t be done, it’s just harder. So once Olivia’s I’m 16 and broke the mold angle wears off, she needs to be a phenomenal talent in the midfield with highlights to go with it to keep getting endorsement money. And she’s not better than rose or Sanchez or horan or even korniack or mewis. So for long term big money I’m not sure what is there for her? Portland companies and sponsorships? Ok. But big money beyond what she could’ve made by playing nwsl after college? Not sure.
     
    Number007 and Byu77 repped this.
  24. Byu77

    Byu77 New Member

    Arsenal
    United States
    Nov 21, 2021
    Good point. Probably can make the argument that what they (OM, Mom/Dad) did was smart as they at least got the initial hype/endorsement money using the 15 year old phenom angle... which will always be her backstory.

    I’m sure she still ends up in the NWSL regardless of the pathway but I agree unless you’re gorgeous, score a lot or have an interesting backstory (Rodman, Moultrie) you’re likely not raking in a ton of endorsement money. Have 2 of those things and you’re a household name (Morgan).
     
  25. Eddie K

    Eddie K Member+

    May 5, 2007
    What? These comments seem off base to me...even pretty sexist. The only female soccer pros that can make a living in the US for any length of time are those good enough to get into the full USWNT pool and so earn that compensation as well. The endorsement money for US men or women's players is just gravy and is a result of their popularity...wait for it....as athletes!

    Cade Cowell makes 550K a year, Trinity Rodman makes 250K but has twice as many social media followers and guess what, Cade Cowell doesn't give a crap. It's the contracted salary that matters! As soon as you stop performing at a high level, you're toast and lose both the contract value and the media value.

    Lots of people look "gorgeous" and can get attention on TV and on TikTok but the athletes that perform at a high level get paid. Morgan has always looked the same but her present value comes from leading the NWSL in scoring and then scoring 2 goals for the US team last night. That's why sponsors pay her, she scores and wins. There are lots of pretty faces out there.
     

Share This Page