Most overrated, underrated

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by phil80, Aug 28, 2007.

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  1. phil80

    phil80 Member

    Aug 25, 2007
    The most overrated players: Cesc, Rio Ferdinand, Lampard and Henry... (by the way overrated does not mean they are not good, just overrated)

    Most underrated: Iniesta, K. Toure, Arteta, Brad Friedel, and Lassana Diarra
  2. The_ChelseaSupporter

    Mar 25, 2007
    Olympia, WA
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Most overrated: Rooney, Gerrard, Tevez
    Most underrated: Lampard, Carvalho, Shevchenko

    That is the final world imsuo. :D
  3. Teso Dos Bichos

    Teso Dos Bichos Red Card

    Sep 2, 2004
    Purged by RvN
    If anything Ferdinand is underrated. In terms of talent he is easily England's best defender but one that always gets abuse regardless. His performances for club and country have been superb, particularly when you consider what he has been forced to work with. Irreplaceable and should be considered up there with the very best. I agree to an extent about the other three named.

    I don't agree with any of that.
  4. The_ChelseaSupporter

    Mar 25, 2007
    Olympia, WA
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Ever heard of a guy named John Terry? I think that Terry is the more consistent player, but Ferdinand has some great games himself.

  5. Teso Dos Bichos

    Teso Dos Bichos Red Card

    Sep 2, 2004
    Purged by RvN
    I don't subscribe to the view that Terry is either a superb overall defender or wonderfully consistent. Terry is a stopper and is therefore limited in what he can do. Get someone with pace or trickery and Terry struggles if he is left isolated against them. That is why it is crucial to have a fast defender who can protect Terry, mark that type of player and cover for for any mistakes. It is also why he needs midfield protection. It is for these reasons that Gallas, and now Carvalho, are often considered to be Chelsea's best central defenders. Granted Terry performs well for club when the team plays to his strengths but he has never taken that form into the national side and his position there is only guaranteed because of his captaincy. In actual fact, there are better options available but McSven's captaincy decision has blocked them off. Take someone like Carragher (who is also a stopper and has arguably more consistent for club than Terry, or players like Woodgate or King, who are better overall but unfortunately injured, even Richards has more to his overall game than Terry and if it were not for the captaincy of the latter then he would probably be partnering Ferdinand for England).

    Ferdinand has more to his overall game, plays best against the type of players that Terry struggles against and has performed better for club and country, often with a lesser supporting cast. By that last comment I mean he has performed superbly in holding Man Utd's defense together considering his previous partners, keepers and lack of midfield protection. While most often bash Ferdinand for a lack of concentration or a mistake they often do not realise that Ferdinand has one eye on everyone else and is trying to cover for inferior partners. Despite that his level of performance has always been very good and now that he finally has a quality keeper in Van der Sar and partner in Vidic, he can finally concentrate on his own game.

    Rooney does not get the credit he deserves for his level of performance and influence. Take last season as an example. He played like shit while recovering from injury in the first half but had an explosive second half and finished posting great goal and assist stats. Did he get praise for any of that? Not at all, he got the usual abuse. Sadly people also like to bash him when he is clearly played out of position and misused. England and in Europe are perfect examples of that. Tevez is similar to Rooney but most do not rate him or his achievements in South America. Despite keeping West Ham up everyone has instead focused on the half of the season where he was misused and adapting to the league. Even now he is being bashed after being thrown straight into the current Man Utd mess while unfit. People are far too quick to bash these two players and refuse to acknowledge when they play well. Gerrard is one of the best central midfielders in the world and his performances, influence and goals are superb. Yet he is usually forgotten about when discussions about best players take place, while inferior rivals are somehow lauded. He is one of the few complete central midfielders around.

    Lampard is overrated because he is simply not as good as people make out. Yes, he can strike the ball well but his shooting accuracy and overall game is lacking. Take England as an example of that and how he has forced a superior player in Scholes out of position and into retirement. He is currently doing likewise in forcing Gerrard out of position. He can get great goals but his overall performance is usually poor, even when he does score. They are far better options for tacking, passing and shooting (etc). Carvalho was rated highly but had not been performing until last season, which is why he was rarely talked about. Shevchenko was considered to be one of the best strikers around but has stuggled for Chelsea, which is why no-one mentions him. Neither are under or overrated.

    Please excuse my rambling, as I am in a rush.
  6. The_ChelseaSupporter

    Mar 25, 2007
    Olympia, WA
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Forgive me for not quoting your post, but I must say your 'ramble' made a lot of sense. You gave plausible arguments and showed that you are clearly a more experienced soccer/football fan than I.

    Congratulations, you've earned a point of rep.
  7. Pakalolo

    Pakalolo Member

    Apr 27, 2006
    at home
    there is nothing like an overrated, or underrated player. All people have different opinions; just because you don't like 'Guernica', does this mean Picasso was/is overrated?

    these discussions are worthless, people just should stop it.
  8. schafer

    schafer Member+

    Mar 12, 2004
    You say that as if it's a default that a player who has either a) pace or b) trickery will automatically beat Terry. Terry's lack of pace has rarely been highlighted for Chelsea because he's smart enough to read the play and cut out the danger or commit a smart foul. Even without Maka in front of him, he's almost never caught out by quicker players, as he knows enough to sit deep and then mark up to deny opponents time on the ball or the opportunity to turn. The way you state your case against Terry you make it seem as if every David Bellion he's come up against has given him fits. They haven't.

    Gallas maybe at CB, although that's not really much of a slight and he's failed thus far to recapture his Chelsea form for Arsenal, but Carvalho is not the better defender. He was great last year, but that's cause Terry was injured. He is certainly not 'often considered to be Chelsea's best central defender', and his lack of organizational ability and aerial presence was highlighted last year in Terry's absence.Nor is he particularly fast. An excellent reader of the game, and a superb all-round footballer, but not a better defender than Terry.

    Btw, you somehow neglect to mention that Rio's CB partner is coincidentally perfectly capable of dealing with the type of bruising centre forwards that sometimes give Rio a hard time.

    Or maybe it's because Terry has for the most part been reliable for England that he gained the captaincy? Carragher, Woodgate and King especially are all excellent CB's, but none of them have the same organizational and leadership qualities that Terry brings, and even if you believe them to be better defenders, there's not enough between them to claim that Terry should be certainly be dropped. Terry has over the past few seasons been reliable enough for England so as to not necessitate dropping him, regardless of how well other CB's might do, as Terry has never been England's weakest link and in fact, has formed a fairly good partnership with Rio. Most of England's problems are in the midfield and further up the pitch, as well as goalkeeper. Not to mention Terry making the team of the tournament at the WC, suggesting that even if he wasn't the best at the tournament (he did have that one bizarre backheader which went totally awry) he didn't do half bad.

    There is no way that right now Micah Richards is a better CB than Terry. He's in great form, but he still makes some mistakes expected of those his age and his distribution and reading of the game is not polished enough for the international game. Very few 19 year olds have started for their country at CB, and that's because experience is very key to the position. Not even Rio started at CB when he was 19.

    Like he did on Sunday?;)

    Some of Rio's mistakes simply cannot be attributed to 'keeping one eye on his defensive partner', which sounds like a fairly lame excuse, IMO, considering Woodgate and King rarely have similar lapses in concentration despite playing with poorer CB partners than Rio. He struggles with concentration, there's no way around it, in the same way Terry lacks pace. Yet both perform often enough at a very high level so that their weaknesses are far less noticeable than their strengths. Rio's still an excellent CB, but acting as if his weaknesses are simply due to his teammates and he's some sort of transcendent footballer who has been babysitting international defenders such as Silvestre and Brown for the past few seasons is stretching it.

    I'm not going to claim that Terry's the best CB in the world. He's not as long as Nesta is around, and then there's a group slightly below Nesta which Terry is in along with the likes of Ferdinand, Gallas, Puyol, Woodgate, Cannavaro, etc. where there is very little between them and the conversation of 'best' is usually dependent on current form. Terry has weaknesses, I won't deny that, but so does every other footballer and like other top players, Terry has strengthened other parts of his game to overcome those weaknesses as much as possible and has become a very, very good defender, and far more than simply the slow, limited stopper you make him out to be, as if he's a slightly better Fitz Hall.
  9. nicephoras

    nicephoras A very stable genius

    Fucklechester Rangers
    Jul 22, 2001
    Eastern Seaboard of Yo! Semite
    First; trolling posts and responses to them removed. People, don't respond to obvious trolls. It gives them ammunition.
    Second, schafer, I think you did a fine job with your post, but why in the world did you respond seriously to a silly post?
  10. Teso Dos Bichos

    Teso Dos Bichos Red Card

    Sep 2, 2004
    Purged by RvN
    Thank you. :)

    I disagree and your example makes little sense. Opinions are a crock at the best of times, particularly when they are based on bias or incorrect information/assumptions. Art, which mainly deals with aesthetics, is completely different to comparing and rating football players based on what they can do (something which does not involve aesthetics).

    The type of player Terry struggles against are those with either pace or trickery on the ball. Obviously it will not happen against every opponent of that nature but that is simply common sense.

    You have already admitted that Carvalho is the better all-round footballer, so you are almost there. The lack of organisational ability comment is simply down to the mess that your defense was in for that short period of time and has everything to do with his defensive partners putting in substandard displays. I disagree with the aerial presence comment as past performances (inc. awards for them) and goals scored shows that he is good in the air. Obviously not as good as Terry but still pretty good. He does not need to be particularly fast because he is still faster than Terry. Obviously Terry is better at abilities associated with his role as a stopper but overall Carvalho is the better player and defender.

    Ferdinand did not struggle at Leeds or for England and has not struggled since Vidic was signed. Clearly Vidic complements Ferdinand and, like Terry, is better at abilities associated with being a stopper but Ferdinand's 'failings' at that has more to do with the performances of his partner than him being poor. After all, it is difficult to play your natural game when your are also trying to cover for your partner as well. It's a failing of the defensive unit. Either way, it still means little when looking at the bigger picture and comparing both players in question.

    Terry has been steady but completely uninspiring, making several mistakes because he is left more exposed at international level than club level. He has leadership, that is without question but it is a quality that has little influence on his abilities as a footballer. I do not think that Terry has good organisational skills. You might mistake his leadership for that but others are much better at organising a defense. Generally speaking, it is not something that stoppers are good at doing because they need to concentrate on what they do while their partner always has one eye of everything else by the very nature of their complementary partnership.

    I never said he was, what I did say was that he had more to his game and if it were not for Terry being captain then Richards would be getting phased into the team around now. Ferdinand was the youngest defender to ever play for England pre-Richards. He went to the World Cup at 20 years of age, was involved in squads and getting phased in at a young age but he had real quality infront of him. Something Richards does not have. Obviously experience counts to a degree but there is only one way to get experience and if Richards continues to develop as he has been doing then it is stupid to keep him out. Young defensive prospects do get used in international football from a young age and there are countless examples. Richards is also arguably better suited to be phased in at a younger age because not only does he have the talent but he is physically ready.

    Some of Rio's mistakes simply cannot be attributed to 'keeping one eye on his defensive partner', which sounds like a fairly lame excuse, IMO, considering Woodgate and King rarely have similar lapses in concentration despite playing with poorer CB partners than Rio. He struggles with concentration, there's no way around it, in the same way Terry lacks pace. Yet both perform often enough at a very high level so that their weaknesses are far less noticeable than their strengths. Rio's still an excellent CB, but acting as if his weaknesses are simply due to his teammates and he's some sort of transcendent footballer who has been babysitting international defenders such as Silvestre and Brown for the past few seasons is stretching it.[/QUOTE]

    He was fine on Sunday considering we were unable to take the pressure off the defense because we were incapable of retaining the ball upfront and Brown was getting caught out of position while filling in for Neville. I disagree with your mistakes comments. When you have the idiots we have had in goal, coupled with the likes of Silvestre and O'Shea making mistakes left, right and centre then your game will clearly suffer as you try to hold everything together. Contrast Ferdinand for England and Ferdinand for Man Utd before we brought quality into our defensive unit. The difference between what Woodgate and King have played with is that despite their partners being of a lesser 'quality' they are generally very steady players who do not make mistakes. Silvestre can be quality against Henry and then make three mistakes in the space of a minute against a bottom of the league side. With that always playing on your mind you are obviously going to be paying more attention to covering for the next mistake your partner makes. With Brown he is usually fine. Obviously everyone makes mistakes but Ferdinand has made few when he is involved in a solid defensive unit and able to concentrate on his own game. The fact that his performances have been to such a high level and consistent despite some of what he has had to face is a credit to him. The best central defender Man Utd have ever had? We had just that debate on our board last year (I think).

    There is an elite tier of defender but I would put Terry in the bottom of the second tier or top of the third. I do not see why he should be included with any of the names you have mentioned as they are all superior players who have more to their games. I also think there is a large numer of players who can also be included above him. As I have always said Terry is very good at what he does but what he does is fairly limited because he is a stopper. I do not see how that is being unfair to Terry or comparing him to shite like Fitz Hall.
  11. johan neeskens

    Jan 14, 2004
    England defenders are overrated (in England). The English style of defenders is not appreciated everywhere, the English don't seem to get that. That said, England forwards are often underrated; Rooney in particular who would be considered a God internationally if he was born in Lisbon. Lampard also is overrated (in England), whereas Scholes is underrated.

    In general, players of some clubs and some countries find it much harder to get rated fairly than others. A Portuguese or Brazilian passport will virtually guarantee that you will be rated for your technical ability (even when you're rubbish) whereas an English passport in turn will immediately create doubts about your technical ability (even when you're brilliant).

    This also applies to clubs. If you're a decent striker and have an Ajax pedigree posters on this board will automatically assume you might become the next Van Basten. If you have a PSV pedigree or hail from any other Dutch club, people will automatically assume you might become the next Kezman (and strangely not the next Ruud).

    On that note: Kuyt underrated, Huntelaar overrated. Van Persie underrated (not in Holland but internationally), Seedorf overrated.
  12. schafer

    schafer Member+

    Mar 12, 2004
    Can I just say that it really is impossible to have a reasonable discussion with you when you cannot even admit that Rio, in probably one of his worst performances in a United shirt, was in fact poor on Sunday. I'll admit Terry's weaknesses and the fact that he occasionally has bad performances, but for you to be so blinded by biased so as to class Rio's performance on Sunday as 'fine' makes any sort of sensible debate impossible. That was not a fine performance by the standard of any Premier league defender, and certainly not one of Ferdinand's class.
  13. L.G.S

    L.G.S New Member

    Aug 31, 2006
    He's past the line of no return, he cannot see sense. Do you see where he said Rio has not struggled since Vidic has come in? Joker.
  14. leg_breaker

    leg_breaker Member

    Dec 23, 2005
    Henry is not overrated. His goalscoring record speaks for itself.
  15. phil80

    phil80 Member

    Aug 25, 2007
    When he (Teso) starts saying that Zidane is not one of the 50 best players of all time, and Ballack is, you know something is wrong
  16. jpick

    jpick Member

    Jul 5, 2006
    jacksonville, FL
    AC Milan
    Nat'l Team:
    He might not be the best for holland, but he fits in pretty well at milan. I like that we keep him. :p
  17. Teso Dos Bichos

    Teso Dos Bichos Red Card

    Sep 2, 2004
    Purged by RvN
    A clean sheet and a victory. I never said he was amazing but likewise he was not horrible either. He was okay and did fine. As I explained previously, I do not expect any of our defenders to look good when Brown is playing at right-back and we are incapable of holding onto the ball further forward. Until we get players back then the defense will be under a lot of pressure and games will be a lot more open than usual as a direct result. I do like how you chose to jump on the description 'fine' and completely ignored the rest if my post...

    What a wonderful contribution to the discussion. :rolleyes:

    Yet another whine from our newbie. What you posted was incorrect, as expected. You should take my advice of reading before you post. You really have been making a fool of yourself recently.
  18. Berean Todd

    Berean Todd New Member

    Jan 25, 2006
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Most overated:
    Frank Lampard, John Terry - both are incredible players, I am not trying to say that they are crap. However, I do not see either as world class, and think both get incredibly overated.

    Robinho - maybe he will one day live up to the hype, but he is not there yet

    Ashley Cole - ok, so not as many people talk him up as they did in his Gunners days, but there was a time people claimed him to be the best LB in the world, and he never was. Again, like Lamps and Terry, he is not a bad player, he is terrific ... but not what he is hyped up to be (are we noticing a trend of alot of these players being English? hmmmm ...)

    Alessandro Del Piero - ok, so this one is more of a personal thing, as he is old, and not so rated any longer. However, he was never as good as his hype, and he was almost always a failure for our Azzurri. One of the more overated of this generation in my opinion.

    Lahm - Ok, he has the talent to be a worldclass left back, and after the last WC he looked to be establishing himself as just that. But his season last year, at least to me, was extremely disapointing. He needs to step up his game to catch up with his hype.

    DeRossi - Yes he has a temper, and a tendency to pick up cards, but this guy is one of the best CMs in the world right now.

    Schweinsteiger - One of the best wings in the world, and doesn't get the appreciation that I think he deserves. Outstanding midfielder anyone would do well to have.

    Steve Finnan - best RB in the EPL, yet all we hear about is Gary Neville.

    Aquillani - One of the best young talented mids in the world, yet how many outside of Italy really rate him yet?
  19. AussieLFCfan

    AussieLFCfan Member

    Apr 24, 2006
    Sydney, Australia
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:

    Overrated: Frank Lampard - I hate the bastard! Anyone can score a goal a game if they take 200 shots! (Maybe 3 on target)

    Underrated: Jamie Carragher - How this guy is not the first picked in the England squad baffles me. No one orks as hard in Defense, No one.
  20. revelationx

    revelationx Member+

    Jun 5, 2006
    This thread seems to have developed into a Man U fan arguing with Chelsea fans over who is better Terry or Rio :rolleyes:.

    Both are excellent CB's with differing strengths that complement each other when playing for England. Neither is particularly over-rated or under-rated.


    Pippo Inzaghi. Everyone seems to regard him as weak, brittle, who is always diving, offside and/or injured. To some degree that is true but his goal scoring record speaks for itself and he should be more respected for that.

    I think Alan Shearer is somewhat under-rated. He scored 260 Prem goals and a lot of people don't seem to acknowledge how remarkable such a feat is. No-one has been anywhere as prolific in any of the top European leagues for decades. (Ronaldo has a few years yet).

    Steve Finnan is Mr Reliable. Outside Anfield however he seems to attract little praise despite being outstanding in his position for a number of years.

    Mark Hughes is under-rated as a manager. He has worked wonders at Blackburn and now they look solid and able to give any Prem team a tough match.

    Steve Coppell is vastly under-rated for his achievements at Reading. If he avoids 2nd season syndrome he deserves even more plaudits and acknowledgement.


    Eboue. Has not done enough to warrant the gushing praise he has received.

    Ben Foster. Some people think he is the best young keeper around. If he was he would already be keeping goal for England and Man Utd. He is only one year younger than Reina and Cech.

    Dean Ashton. Some people think he is the 2nd coming at West Ham despite only playing for them for half a season. His absence was widely touted as the reason they were almost relegated. He has thus achieved legendary status at the Hammers. This season he will play for them again and the reality will be slightly disappointing.

    Roy Keane is over-rated as a manager. He has done well in one year but people are allowing his success in the Championship and his reputation as a player to cloud their expectations. Sunderland have won the Championship before only to subsequently flop in the Premiership. Keane has spent a HUGE amount of cash for a newly promoted side. His signings look over-priced and simply players he knows from Man Utd or Ireland. His squad looks to be one of the weakest on paper in the Premiership. This is inexcusable given the money he has spent. I expect a mis-firing Man Utd to massacre them this weekend. Reality will catch up and shatter the Roy Keane manager hype fairly quickly.
  21. schafer

    schafer Member+

    Mar 12, 2004

    The reason I ignored the rest of your post is because if any other defender, and especially John Terry, put in that kind of performance, you would have (rightfully so) highlighted their poor performance. If you honestly rate that kind of shambolic defending, where he lacked confidence in possession, was slow to close down threats and the defence in general was horribly disorganized (which falls at least partially on his shoulders, as he's the 'senior' defender) as passable, then there really is no use having this discussion, as it's painfully obvious that you have an entirely different standard for Rio's performances as you do for everyone else. And don't drag up that BS blaming it on Brown or the failure of the team to keep possession, as Brown has played RB and United have lined up with no true CF for every game of the season, and yet Rio's performances had been good up until that game.
  22. johan neeskens

    Jan 14, 2004
    The irony being that outside of England, very few people rate either highly.
  23. Moishe

    Moishe Moderator
    Staff Member

    Boca Juniors
    Mar 6, 2005
    Here there and everywhere.
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    This comment may get me flamed but I'm going to say that Lionel Messi is somewhat overrated. Sure he is an incredibly talented player for his age but the way some people talk about him he's already the next Maradona. Yes he's done some brilliant things already but he still has a ways to go to warrant the type of hype he receives.

    To chime in on the whole Terry/Rio thing. I think both are excellent defenders yet on their own they are as average as most any defender will be without support. Really what defenders are so go that they can do it all on their own? As an Albiceleste fan, I'd take both Terry/Rio over anyone on our defensive unit minus Zanetti. I'd be interested to read another thread breaking down the worlds defenders it such a thread still exsists.
  24. phil80

    phil80 Member

    Aug 25, 2007
    Once again, learn to stick up with the insane garbage you post. You wrote Ballack should be included in the top 50 and zidane not, if that nonsense then i dont know what is.
  25. arvin sloane

    arvin sloane Member

    Aug 16, 2006
    What's wrong with that?

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